Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 129)
MONDAY 15 JANUARY 2007
MR BLASÉ
LAMBERT, MR
NIC BLISS,
MR MICHAEL
GELLING, MS
CORA CARTER
MBE, MR TERRY
EDIS AND
MR TREVOR
BELL
Q120 Chair: So
what is different?
Mr Bliss: The things that have
been different are simply the ownership of the asset—
Q121 Chair: So
what advantage does that then give over and above the other forms
of tenant management?
Mr Bliss: I think people will
have different perspectives on this but it means that you own
a community asset that you are able to use and make decisions
on about how you use that asset and so on, without reference to
other organisations—
Q122 Chair: Do
not worry about other people not agreeing with what you are saying;
you are giving evidence from your own organisation, so just give
it. What do you think is the advantage of the co-operatives owning
the land?
Mr Lambert: I suppose I would
put an alternative question which is what are the advantages and
benefits that individuals get from owning their own home as opposed
to renting? It is that degree of extra control that you have over
your own home as a home owner as opposed to being somebody that
rents a property that is owned by somebody else, so it is that
similar situation when you feel ownership over the assets that
you are living in. As an example people are much more likely to
better maintain the properties and have more respect for the area
they are living in than they would do if they feel they have no
real ownership over it and which they did not actively choose.
Q123 Mr Hands:
Are you saying that those in co-operative owned homes are more
likely than those renting from a local authority to take pride
in their own environment?
Mr Lambert: Most certainly.
Mr Bell: A number of Tenant Management
Organisations are actively looking at moving from management to
community ownership, and Terry's organisation did just that, and
some of the organisations are executive so you are talking about
giving them long-term security. Because even with a management
agreement there is still the potential for the landlord to change
its mind about tenant management and be a much more awkward partner,
and some TMOs are saying: "Well, having put all that community
investment into our organisation, why should we be vulnerable
to the local authority changing tack on TMOs?" There is a
grant system currently available to community organisations to
investigate community ownership as a possible option.
Mr Gelling: Briefly I would not
say that ownership actually does more for tenants than just renting.
There has to be an element of choice here and we have to get rid
of the stigma about being a tenant, because I am quite proud of
being a tenant and many people choose to be tenants. Not everybody
is on benefits and it is not everybody's housing of last resort,
and there is that kind of stigma that comes to the rented sector
and we have to get rid of that. I am proud of where I live and
I will invest in my property even though I pay rent and it will
never be mine, and I am happy to do that, and we can take you
to many areas of the country where that example can be panned
out. So it is not just about ownership. If you are empowered to
be part of the decision-making process, that is as much ownership
as many people would want.
Mr Edis: Quickly on the stigma
point, if you watch "The Bill", all the criminals
live in that one block of flats on that one council estate which
is rented, and it is ridden with graffiti and everything else.
And that is the stigma to it.
Q124 Chair: The
Government is suggesting that TMOs and ALMOs could be given some
additional powers from local authorities such as the ability,
for example, to apply for anti-social behaviour orders. Can I
have your brief response to that? Good idea? Bad idea?
Mr Edis: It can be a good idea
but there are still a lot of Ts to be crossed and Is to be dotted
before it happens. Certainly in the London area, for instance,
TMOs are experiencing great difficulties in courts accepting the
TMO staff giving evidence, and that is not just on anti-social
behaviour but across the board on housing, so that is a problem,
and the Lord Chief Justice has just issued a Directive to all
courts that they do not accept evidence only from representatives
of the landlord.
Mr Gelling: TMOs and landlords
taking extra responsibilities should not be a burden on the rent
payer, that is the essential part, and if housing associations
are allowed to do the same, considering some of them work in 120
local authority areas, I would say that would have to be relooked
at, because unless they are managed locally it will not work on
that basis.
Q125 Mr Hands:
I want to end with a very general question which is that you are
probably some of the most influential tenants in the country,
and I am just wondering how much real influence do you think you
have on government proposals, legislation and policy? In other
words, if people do not listen to you, and you are all chairs,
secretaries, treasurers, et cetera, of various national bodies,
what hope is there for anybody else?
Ms Carter: First and foremost
I am a tenant.
Q126 Mr Hands:
How much are you listened to because you are, for example, on
the Tenants' and Residents' Association of England?
Ms Carter: You have to earn that
respect as well from people.
Mr Edis: This is the first time
that certainly we have been asked to give evidence in this and
that has to be a step in the right direction. I welcome it and
at this moment in time I think it has been piecemeal, whether
it is tick in the boxes or whatever, and I think we need to have
that voice and we need to be influencing.
Q127 Mr Hands:
I am assuming you are included on government consultations?
Ms Carter: Yes.
Q128 Mr Hands:
How often do the Government, or anybody, apart from ourselves
obviously, come out proactively to seek your opinion?
Ms Carter: We meet the minister
six monthly, and civil servants.
Q129 Mr Hands:
What about the other organisations?
Mr Edis: Civil servants we meet
on a regular basis. We just had a meeting with them today, actually,
and the Housing Corporation.
Mr Bliss: It has been some time
since we had much dialogue with government. We did in the past,
I think. The reality is that although we and other organisations
and other people involved have had a general influence over the
drift of how tenant participation and so on has developed over
the last few years, there is an enormous untapped potential of
people out there who could do a lot of beneficial things in local
communities that has yet to be tapped, and I think it is high
time that government should be listening and should be looking
at this agenda and bringing it far more to the fore.
Ms Carter: If I as a tenant was
not working for my own estate doing the jumble sales, the kids,
et cetera, they would soon tell me. They are the ones that put
me here. They are the ones that vote me on to everything and if
you are not doing right in your own area then you have no right
to be sat here.
Chair: I need to draw this to a close
because we have three other sets of witnesses this afternoon,
but thank you all very much, and if there are additional points
that you think we ought to know about, you can always drop in
a further written submission. Thank you very much.
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