Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-31)
MS PAMELA
HOLMES, MR
MARTIN JACKAMAN
AND MR
ALAN SHRANK
2 JUNE 2008
Q20 Chair: Perhaps you could let
us know if it does work.
Mr Shrank: I do not know how you
would assess it. It is not easy to assess!
Q21 Anne Main: Briefly on that, I
have spent the night out with my police and they fine people £50
on the spot if they see them urinating in doorways, so they can
do it. I would like to caution that it is not an absolute fact
that they cannot do this because they can. I feel we are talking
about different sets of toilets here, that is the only thing I
would like to get out. You want a pop-up instant urinal which
is fairly cheap and whatever—
Mr Shrank: I want one that works
for women and men.
Anne Main: —and we are talking
here state of the art toilets. I wanted to sort out our loos into
separate categories.
Q22 Emily Thornberry: In many towns
and cities we seem to be moving away from publicly provided toilets
to local authorities working in partnership with businesses, local
cafés or pubs, sometimes even paying them for having toilets
open. What do you think about that? Do you think this is a way
forward?
Ms Holmes: It is certainly a way
forward in terms of the menu of options that a local authority
can provide, but our evidence from older people is that they do
not always feel comfortable going into bars and restaurants, particularly
as the day progresses and it gets towards evening. They would
rather be anonymous and not be seen to be there having to go to
the toilet. Many have said they feel it should be a duty which
is placed on local authorities. The response is that it is an
option which should be available but that should not detract from
the commitment by local authorities to provide facilities that
old people can use at any time.
Q23 Emily Thornberry: Have you ever
asked people what they think about one possible solution, which
might be to have it as a licensing requirement that members of
the public be allowed to have access to public toilets?
Ms Holmes: We have not asked older
people that.
Mr Shrank: I think I suggested
that of all the places it would be sensible for, it would be the
public houses, they should be obliged to have their facilities
available to the public and not be able to refuse entry. At the
moment a landlord can refuse entry to anyone to his premises if
he does not want them to come in and he does not have to give
a reason, but if somebody wanted to use their conveniences they
should be allowed to do so. The problem of street fouling which
I raised is that there are no premises open when the problem occurs,
so it may solve some of the daytime problem, but it will not solve
the night problem.
Mr Jackaman: That real question
of using public houses is perhaps a step too far at this stage
in the game. We would be quite happy and parents are quite happy
to even accept a toilet which is open until 8 or 10 o'clock at
night because at the moment there is no statutory responsibility.
We are working with British Standards on this, but there is no
responsibility yet.
Q24 Mr Betts: In terms of toilets
which are suitable for disabled people to use, are we getting
more of that provision? It has also been suggested to us that
sometimes authorities say, "That toilet has got a few steps,
it's a bit difficult" and use the disability discrimination
provision as a reason for shutting the toilet down altogether.
What are your experiences?
Mr Jackaman: I think local authorities
are trying to minimise and look at their provisions and I am sure
there are examples where that has happened. Also, I think with
the pressure of the Disability Discrimination Act and the disability
equality duty local authorities are also thinking this is important.
Of course, speaking as someone who is employed by a local authority,
the other thing is when we are asked by the Government to develop
services and get people spending more time in the community, therefore,
we have to work in partnership and parts of the council have to
say, "Right, we need to make our facilities more accessible",
and the proactive ones are doing that.
Ms Holmes: Certainly accessibility
is a big problem for older people and a number said that they
could not access the toilet, it was not something they were able
to use, whether it was because steps were involved or handles
or locks or having space to move about, and this is certainly
a problem for a number of older people.
Mr Shrank: Some local authorities
are using it as an excuse to close premises because they say,
"We can't convert this premises for access for the disabled,
so we will close it". They are looking for excuses to close
them.
Q25 Chair: Do you have any specific
examples of that, not necessarily now but if you could provide
them?
Mr Shrank: I can try and provide
them.
Chair: That would be extremely
helpful or, indeed, any of the other two witnesses because anecdotally
people have said that, but it would be good if we had some real
examples.
Q26 Mr Betts: We will move on to
what one of my constituents referred to as the "TARDIS toilets"
that she was not going to use because she went in and pressed
the button and she was not sure where she would be when she came
out! Are these generally not popular with sections of the public?
I know a few years ago when I was on the council they were being
sold as the best thing because they would not need any maintenance,
you do not have any attendants, they would be vandal-proof and
they would be the solution to all our problems.
Ms Holmes: Anecdotally our evidence
is that older people find them difficult to use and are frightened
the doors are going to flick open while they are in there and
they do not feel comfortable using them, so it has not been an
option for them.
Mr Shrank: It is very difficult
if you have got children in a pram or if you have got a basket
of shopping. They are difficult to use.
Mr Jackaman: They are totally
unsuitable for people with profound disabilities because you would
not have the facilities.
Mr Betts: Could they be redesigned in
a way that could make them more suitable?
Q27 Dr Pugh: Why would it be more
difficult if you have got a basket of shopping as opposed to an
old-fashioned cubicle?
Mr Shrank: It depends on the size
of the door, does it not? Some of the ones I have seen and used
are not all that easy to get into.
Q28 Mr Betts: Is it possible to come
up with a different design or is it a challenge to come up with
something which is fairly low maintenance and a bit more vandal-proof
than the traditional toilet, but which is reasonably easy to use?
Is that a challenge we ought to be putting to all these wonderful
designers we have at present?
Mr Jackaman: If you are using
a ceiling hoist, that would be incredibly difficult. Of course,
the other thing is vandalism. A lot of the Changing Place toilets
are kept with a radar key or, in the case of some local authorities,
there is an attendant because of the nature of the facilities
and you get into issues of liability.
Q29 Anne Main: We would all of us
love to have a set of loos that we could walk into and it is state
of the art, but what you are suggesting is a statutory duty on
local authorities to provide toilets. As I say, I keep going back
to the fact that we are talking about different sets of loos here,
so let us assume it is a multiplicity of toilets. If you are saying
it is a statutory duty, can you accept that many local authorities
would find that onerous and would have to take finances from elsewhere,
which would make it difficult for an authority to make ends meet?
Ms Holmes: If you are talking
about the creation of a local neighbourhood and a place where
people want to live, and that is presumably the interest of local
authorities, you have to see public toilet provision as part of
that menu of what is seen to be a good place to want to live,
work and raise families and so on. It goes along with good pavements
and street lighting and a focus on crime, but it is a good indicator
of the seriousness with which a local authority takes the provision
of a good neighbourhood. To think in straight economic terms is
to miss the hidden costs or benefits of having people able to
get out and about.
Q30 Anne Main: The balance has got
to add up for a local authority. My authority struggles desperately
with its funding and they are not alone. If you are struggling
to make sure you have got adequate care for the elderly and various
other things which are under pressure, would this be a step too
far to make it a statutory duty on local authorities that that
had to be a priority?
Ms Holmes: We would argue no because
the cost of health and social care, for example, which will not
be coming out of the same budget but will be a cost on local authorities,
would at some stage be less because older people would be able
to get out and about, keep active, would not be depressed and
would be able to keep more involved. There would be hidden benefits
from the provision.
Anne Main: You did say earlier
on they do not like going to some of these premises, they feel
slightly embarrassed about going in there and, I am sorry, to
me that is not a good enough argument. You have to have a demonstrable
need, just because people would rather have something else is
not a good enough reason for a local authority pressed for finances
to decide that. You have made a cogent argument about empowering
disabled people, that is not just like, "Well, they do not
like going to Marks and Spencer's" or wherever.
Q31 Chair: Presumably if it were
a statutory duty that would not necessarily mean that the authority
had to provide it? It would not exclude the community toilet schemes
where the councils pay some money to a trader essentially and
give them public liability cover, that could be part of fulfilling
their statutory duty.
Mr Jackaman: From our point of
view, as long as there was a Changing Place toilet in public facilities
because at the moment it is a dignity issue because they cannot
access it so they are discriminated against, it is a real discrimination
issue. That is the point that I would make.
Mr Shrank: A lot of towns are
historic and they are tourist centres and tourists turn up by
train, there is a loo at the station, but if they turn up in a
car or a coach and they use a big car park unless there are toilet
facilities there, suddenly the place becomes unattractive because
they cannot use a toilet facility when they really need it. They
have just got out of a long journey and they are a crowd of people
on a coach trip, they come, there is nothing. You go to some towns
and they have worked it out, they have put public toilets on car
parks. You find them in multistorey car parks usually, but you
do not find them in open car parks outside towns, but some do
it. It makes a lot of difference to the whole attitude that people
have as tourists when they come to a town if they find there are
conveniences where they want them. It is very simple, a private
authority will not do it because on the whole they do not run
car parks like that.
Mr Jackaman: Simply when you get
the situation where parents get someone up, get them in the adapted
vehicle, get them into the centre of town and then straightaway
they need changing, it is back to the car and back home. That
is the choice.
Chair: Thank you all very much indeed.
If you can provide us with the specific examples afterwards, that
would be extremely helpful. Thank you very much.
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