Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 419)
TUESDAY 22 JANUARY 2008
MR GERRY
SUTCLIFFE MP AND
MR JONATHAN
STEPHENS
Q400 Chairman:
One of the stories which the Secretary of State told, he recounted
how Seb Coe and Daley Thompson had come back from their Olympic
success to find a queue 50 metres long of young people wishing
to join sports clubs, but being turned away because there was
not the capacity, and he suggested that that was a tragedy which
he wanted to make sure did not happen next time. How are you going
to achieve that because you are not suggesting that the Department
of Health is going to be supporting individual sports clubs?
Mr Sutcliffe: I think what we
want to achieve, and we are doing it before the 2012 Olympics,
we are doing it through the Decade of Sport, is to use sport to
inspire people, to use sport to work in partnership with local
government, with the regional sports bodies and with the governing
bodies to look at what needs to happen in terms of participation
rates. We talked earlier about the investment in school sport
and how we are going to achieve that through the increased offer
from two to five. In community sport, and I see it in my own constituency
and I am sure colleagues do in theirs as well, local people volunteer,
get involved and try and run these sports clubs without a great
deal of support in the early stages. What I hope to achieve is
that that level of support is there so that there are people to
go to that can give advice about the investment that is needed
in facilities, what support can be given in terms of training
facilities and what support can be given in pitches. In Bradford,
I have to say, some of the football pitches are the same now as
when I played on them 35/40 years ago because the investment has
not taken place, so we need to work with local authorities and
we need to work with the governing bodies about how we will turn
all that around. I talked earlier about world-class facilities
and I genuinely believe that, that community sport is entitled
to world-class facilities and it is important that we put the
investment in at the elite level to get the return on medals that
we hope we will see in Beijing and in 2012, but we want to offer
up those low-cost facilities as well, so it is about raising capacity,
about encouraging people to be involved, and about giving direction
to people in knowing where to go in terms of advice and support
for the many clubs and many volunteers that are out there.
Q401 Chairman:
You have, to some extent, increased the grant-in-aid to Sport
England, but not sufficiently to make up for the amount of money
it is going to lose from the Lottery, but clearly, if you take
those things together, you are then talking about hoping to attract
money from other government departments. Is it your hope that
actually the total amount of money going into sport will not decrease,
despite the Olympic drain?
Mr Sutcliffe: I hope that that
is the case. Another sector we can look at for investment is the
private sector with all that I said earlier about trying to get
people to be involved. We were very clear at the outset of the
Olympics that money would come from the Lottery and the Secretary
of State and the Minister for the Olympics have been very clear
about setting out that case, and again I am pleased to see that
that was supported certainly by the Commons last week and hopefully
by the Lords in the coming weeks so that people understand fully
where we are, but yes, we will be looking at all opportunities
to increase the level of income that comes into sport.
Q402 Chairman:
And, in order to achieve that vision of ensuring that community
sports clubs are there to accommodate the rush of people who are
going to be inspired to participate, that is going to require
at least that the present level of funding is maintained, if not
increased. Would you not agree?
Mr Sutcliffe: Yes, but we can
work wiser, we can be more efficient in the way we do things and
we can look at what support other departments of government, particularly
the Treasury, can give to sport, and again we will push all those
opportunities.
Q403 Chairman:
On Sport England itself, when do you want to see a Chairman in
place?
Mr Sutcliffe: As quickly as possible.
As has been said, the process has already started and we will
be looking or Sport England will be looking at the candidates
and hopefully we will get to a very early appointment.
Q404 Chairman:
Were you disappointed by the remarks of the outgoing Chairman?
Mr Sutcliffe: Well, first of all,
I would like to congratulate Derek Mapp on the work that he did
when he was Chair of Sport England. He clearly disagreed with
the direction of travel that we wanted to go in. I think he was
wrong and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I think
that he could have stayed and would have enjoyed working with
us, but clearly that was not to be.
Q405 Chairman:
But presumably he agreed the direction of travel with the previous
Secretary of State?
Mr Sutcliffe: Well, the direction
of travel was to increase participation by two million by 2012,
and that has not changed.
Q406 Chairman:
But, nonetheless, his vision and how you went about increasing
participation must have been something that he then agreed with
the previous Secretary of State and, if not, it was not his fault,
but the Secretary of State has changed and we now have a completely
different vision.
Mr Sutcliffe: No, I think that
the participation targets have remained the same. I think he had
not the same faith perhaps in our ability to negotiate with our
colleagues in other departments, and I am happy to say already
in the meetings that I have been involved with that I am heartened
by the discussions that we are having, so again the proof of the
pudding will be in the eating.
Q407 Chairman:
This is the Andy Burnham-chaired committee?
Mr Sutcliffe: It is a mixture
actually. It is the Health and Wellbeing Committee and I also
sit on the Obesity Committee dealing with the Foresight Study
and, again with Kevin Brennan and now Dawn Primarolo from education
and health, so I think there are a number of avenues where resources
and support will come in addition to all the things we have talked
about today which will make sport activity a benefit.
Chairman: Well, I am delighted to hear
that you are finding enthusiasm in the Treasury to spend more
money; it will be a novelty if it is the case!
Q408 Philip Davies:
One of the great benefits of the Olympics, we are told, is the
increased participation in sport, even though there seems to be
no evidence from any other host city anywhere previously that
they have seen this increase in participation in sport, so do
you think the Government are perhaps placing too much faith in
it providing a boost to participation in sport?
Mr Sutcliffe: No, I think it is
the right thing to do and, you are right, it is about the legacy
that has happened in other cities, and there will be arguments,
I am sure, from those countries about the benefits that they had.
Certainly we are looking at what is going on in Vancouver, for
instance, on the 2010 Winter Olympics and how they are looking
at participation and how they are setting about increasing it.
I am very confident, I think it is the right thing to do and certainly
I think now is the right time to be doing it rather than leaving
it, as you said earlier, to the two or three weeks of the Olympics.
We need to be putting the infrastructure in place now and we need
to be trying to inspire now to make sure that we do get people
participating.
Q409 Philip Davies:
Most people, and hopefully a lot of people in this country, will
be able to see the Olympics in 2012 when it happens and, even
if that happens, the vast majority of people in this country in
2012 will access the Olympics by watching it on TV, so why should
anybody be more inspired to get involved in sport by watching
a British athlete win at the Olympic Games in 2012 in Britain
than they would be by watching a British athlete win an Olympic
Gold Medal in Beijing in 2008? If they are both watched on TV,
why should one inspire somebody to take part in sport more than
the other?
Mr Sutcliffe: I think it is more
than that. The Olympic Games, whilst we focus on sport, is more
than just sport. It is about the whole nation coming together
and being part of the Olympic events in London, and that is why
there is the variety of bodies, there is the Nations and Regions
Committee of LOCOG and in the DCMS I chair the Legacy Board, looking
at all activities across government that can help people benefit
from the Olympics in 2012, but I think that was very much part
of the reasoning for bidding for 2012, to look at a legacy of
inspiration of all things, whether that is cultural or economic,
and we want to make sure that people are boosted by the Olympics
taking place in 2012, so I believe that people will get more than
just the satisfaction of watching many more British Olympians
getting medals on TV. It will be more than just watching it on
TV, it will be the actual fact of it taking place here in the
UK.
Q410 Philip Davies:
If we tried to use our Olympic heroes as role models to get people
to participate, and the Chairman mentioned earlier this 50-metre
queue of people who were waiting for Daley Thompson and Seb Coe,
but they did not win their Gold Medals in Britain, they won them
in other parts of the world, so should the Government not really
be making more of an effort to use the Olympic Games in Beijing,
for example, as a stepping stone for getting people to participate
in sport rather than waiting for this panacea of 2012?
Mr Sutcliffe: That is a fair point
and we are doing. In UK Sport, the £600 million has been
invested in elite sportsmen and women, meaning that for Beijing
we will hopefully have an improved performance on what we had
in the previous Olympic Games in terms of the medal count and
the development of our major athletes, so you will start to see
hopefully from Beijing improvements which will inspire people
to perform in 2012 as well.
Q411 Adam Price:
On the issue of elite sport, could you just describe how you see
the different roles played by UK Sport and the British Olympic
Association in preparing high-performance athletes for 2012?
Mr Sutcliffe: Complementary, and
I am pleased to see BOA and UK Sport working very well together.
There have been hiccups along the way, but we have managed to
resolve those in terms of the relationships that exist, but everybody
is focused on making sure, with the investment that has gone in,
that we provide the best opportunities for our sportsmen and women
and paralympians to make sure that they do the best they can in
Beijing and in 2012.
Q412 Adam Price:
There is potential for duplication. What were the hiccups that
have been ironed out, if I can mix my metaphors?
Mr Sutcliffe: Well, the particular
thing that caused a problem was the BOA's view about the involvement
of Clive Woodward in terms of his ideas on coaching and performance
and that of UK Sport. I was happy to meet both bodies individually,
look at what was put to me and I saw them being complementary
and I am happy that I was able to persuade both the BOA and UK
Sport that they were complementary, and people are now working
very hard together to make sure that we deliver those projects.
Q413 Adam Price:
The BOA have set a target for the UK in 2008. Does the Government
support that target?
Mr Sutcliffe: Well, clearly on
the basis of the £600 million investment, that is what we
were told should be the outcome for that level of investment.
Q414 Adam Price:
You are not the Minister for betting?
Mr Sutcliffe: I actually am!
Q415 Adam Price:
Well, are you a betting man? How confident are you that we will
reach that target?
Mr Sutcliffe: Very confident in
the sense that the investment is there and I have looked at what
is going on within UK Sport with the BOA, so I believe that everything
that could be done is being done and we have to keep monitoring
that. I do not want people to become complacent. The investment
is the largest-ever investment in elite sport. I am slightly concerned
by some of the news about tennis players being sent home because
people should be aware of the level of investment that is there,
people should not be complacent, and we do expect people to deliver
on the level of investment that has gone in.
Q416 Adam Price:
The Government has said that you hope to raise an extra £100
million from private-sector sources additionally to fund elite
sportsmen and women development. Are you announcing today in your
annual report the appointment of the fund-raising partner?
Mr Sutcliffe: Not in the annual
report, but I am happy to announce it to the Committee today,
that we have entered into partnership with Fast Track to help
us raise this money. Fast Track have good experience of raising
money in this sector in the way that we foresee and we are now
working and drawing up detailed plans with them about how we are
going to achieve this money.
Q417 Adam Price:
In broad terms, in what kind of timescale would you expect that
money to be raised so that it will be invested in sufficient time
for it to have an effect?
Mr Sutcliffe: Well, the Treasury
expect us to be able to raise £20 million a year for the
next five years, so we need to be up and running very quickly.
Q418 Adam Price:
Could I finally raise the issue of the Paralympics and the current
ban upon participation in the Paralympic Games by adults with
an intellectual disability, which I know Rosemary McKenna has
raised previously. Is the Government pressing the International
Paralympic Committee to revoke the ban on people with learning
disabilities taking part?
Mr Sutcliffe: I think there are
a number of things here, and I know that most hon Members will
be aware of the Mencap campaign on the involvement in youth and
school games, and, I am happy to say, we have had a very positive
meeting with Mencap about how we can let athletes with learning
disabilities be involved in those games. I have met with the Paralympics
to talk about intellectual disabilities and clearly there is an
international issue here which needs to be addressed, but again,
I am happy to say, we have been working with especially the Olympics
Disability Sports and the Paralympics about what can be done.
It may mean that we have to look for some investment in trying
to sort out the definitions, but what I got was a feeling from
all of those organisations that there is a willingness to make
sure that this issue is resolved as quickly as possible.
Q419 Adam Price:
And you have come to a judgment, as far as UK Sport and government-funded
sporting activity is concerned, that there will be no discrimination
against people with intellectual disabilities?
Mr Sutcliffe: Very much so. I
see this being a part of the family of sport and I want to make
sure that there is equal treatment for those people who want to
participate.
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