Examination of Witnesses (Questions 65
- 79)
TUESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2007
PETER HAMPSON,
MS SUZANNE
MALCOLM, STEVE
VINSON AND
STEVE WEAVER
Chairman: May I welcome our next witnesses,
Peter Hampson, Director of the British Resorts and Destinations
Association; Suzanne Malcolm, from Oxford City Council; Steve
Vinson, from Caradon District Council; and Steve Weaver, Chief
Executive of Blackpool Council. I will ask Mike Hall to start.
Q65 Mr Hall: I think you all sat
in on the previous session too. We are getting the picture that
tourism in the UK is declining and it is an industry that is in
desperate need of support. Is that the general view of the way
we are in this particular industry now?
Mr Hampson: I was sitting at the
back and that is not the impression that I thought my colleagues
from other parts of the industry were giving. If that is the impression
you have got, I am not sure it is the true impression. You are
in an industry which has two parts: an international market and
a domestic market, both of which are doing remarkably well. The
issue is, I think, that it could do an awful lot better. There
are issues over the domestic market and the fact that if fewer
people went abroad and more stayed at home that would be good
for balance of payments. There is also the issue that if more
people came to this country and enjoyed the delights of it, we
would benefit from an increase in balance of payments. The problem
is that the structures that support that industry, the reasons
why there have to be structures in place and the funding of those
structures, are not properly understood at government level.
Q66 Mr Hall: Thank you. Would anybody
like to elaborate on that or disagree?
Mr Weaver: Perhaps I could add
something to that from Blackpool's perspective. I absolutely totally
agree that, as an international and national industry, tourism
and leisure is a growing industry and growing well above the trend
of other industries. I think it is a varied picture in terms of
how different parts of the industry are performing in the UK.
Whereas generally it is absolutely growing, certain seaside resorts—and
I think Blackpool, unfortunately, is in that category and probably
the largest in that category—are showing a year on year
decline in our number of visitors, in visitor-spend, in length
of stay. That decline is reflected in an economy which is fundamentally
based on that. If we do not change that economy, we cannot have
an alternative in Blackpool. That is reflected in the infrastructure,
public and private in Blackpool; it is reflected in the social
consequence of that. That does not mean that we cannot see that
there is a future for a quality seaside differentiated, fun-based,
thrill-based resort—which we think there is—and we
have a strategy and a view as to how we could get there, but,
without significant intervention, that decline will continue.
That is shared in other seaside resorts of a similar nature. The
problems that are faced, the solutions to it, certainly lie within
DCMS and the need for DCMS to have a very clear view on how it
wishes to deal with that, but it stretches across government and
across a whole range of government departments in the kind of
interventions that are needed. But the opportunity is there for
places like Blackpool and other seaside resorts to benefit from
the way in which this industry is growing nationally and internationally.
Q67 Mr Hall: To be quite clear, you
have said there is a decline that is measurable in Blackpool.
Is that the same for other similar seaside resorts in the UK?
Mr Weaver: One of the issues,
which you picked up before, is there is no consistency of data
collection that makes it very easy to compare one place with another.
Perhaps you will come back to that later. I am only speaking anecdotally
but I would be aware of certain other resorts which are showing
similar sorts of decline to Blackpool. Certainly, from our side,
we can speak on the surveys that we have carried out biannually
and now annually in terms of numbers of people coming as well
as surveys of our attractions and accommodation, so we know there
is a very steady consistent decline, unfortunately. We have not
yet reached the point where we have turned that around.
Mr Hampson: My association mainly
represents the largest seaside resorts. That is not exclusively
our business but by default a lot of our members are the large
seaside resorts. Generally, across the board, it is an area that
is struggling. There is nothing wrong with the basic product;
indeed, the seaside resorts have a bright future in an industry
where people choose to stay in this country more, because they
have the capacity to absorb some of the growth without damaging
some of our more fragile rural communities. The problem that seaside
resorts have is that the structures that were in place for a mass
market in the 1950s have not been able to change because they
have not had access to the kinds of resources that have been allocated
to the inland towns. It is not about the towns having no future;
it is about getting the sorts of sensible support that any other
town in the country would get. At the moment they are not getting
it because they are perceived to be seaside towns dominated by
a decline in the tourism industry. Once you get your mind around
the fact that it is not a declining industry, that it has huge
potential, then there is an exciting option there to develop it.
Q68 Mr Hall: We have cheap flights
to almost any tourist destination internationally now, readily
available from expanding regional airports. We had the stuff from
Greg Hutcheon about the National Trust's view about all this.
Is it not inevitable that the domestic tourist industry is going
to suffer as long as these cheap flights continue?
Mr Hampson: Tourism is a discretionary
activity. If people can go abroad cheaply, then they will go abroad
cheaply. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with that provided there
is a balance and the domestic alternatives are given a fair crack
of the whip and the right investment, the right levels of government
support, are put into them. The bigger question that we always
get—and I am slightly sidetracking from that answer—is:
Why does this industry need support, why does it need support
when manufacturing does not need the kind of support? The first
point is that, when you look back across history, a lot of other
industries have had the sort of support that tourism is demanding,
the sort of government intervention, but people do not understand
that there are certain things that the tourism industry cannot
do for itself and that is where DCMS, VisitBritain, local authorities,
other tourism agencies, have to be able to act, and it often takes
public funding to make that intervention work. That is where we
need support to develop the industry.
Mr Weaver: I do not agree that
it is inevitable that there will be a decline in UK tourism as
a consequence of cheap flights and international competition.
Certainly in the trends that we have looked at, going back over
a period of time, the growth graphs pretty well mirror each other
in terms of trips abroad together with UK-based tourism. From
our perspective, it comes down to producing a quality differentiated
product. I think we have some fantastic quality products in Britain,
to which people come to from abroad and to which we go too. From
our side, on the seaside resorts, which is just one part of that
kind of market, I think we need to find that sort of quality product
as a mass seaside resort. I believe it is there to be reached,
an opportunity to be gained, but it is in our hands in Britain
and in local government to produce that product. I do not believe
it is inevitable. The trends do not show it is inevitable; they
show that we can compete in our local leisure and tourism market.
Some sections are doing incredibly well, some seaside resorts
are not, and that is because we do not yet have that quality product
which we have to have in order to compete with other places within
the UK. The cities are very much our competition now, as well
as rural destinations, as well as the holidays abroad, but we
have a view, a vision, a hope in Blackpool that we will draw people
in, from Northern Europe, in particular, and Ireland, to the kind
of Fylde Coast/seaside experience going into Lancashire. If we
produce the quality product, people will come.
Q69 Mr Hall: So it is a question
of marketing.
Mr Weaver: It is wider than marketing.
If we marketed our product now, I think there would be disappointment.
The public realm and the infrastructure has to be there. The right
quality of accommodation, the food offer, the quality of attractions
needs to be there, and then marketing becomes very much an issue.
But the product has to be there to market it, as does the quality
of the public realm and the infrastructure.
Q70 Mr Hall: The BRADA submission
talks about a bigger, year-round, "dynamic mix" of holiday
taking in the UK. How are you going to deliver that?
Mr Weaver: I can talk about how
we will do that in Blackpool if we get the right leaders and the
opportunities to produce an all-year-round differentiated quality
product in Blackpool. I am sure that that challenge will be met
throughout the UK in other places in very different ways. I do
not want to hog the session, but I am more than happy to talk
about what we would do.
Chairman: That is fine. Thank you. Helen
Southworth.
Q71 Helen Southworth: Perhaps I could
move a little on from that to ask who are going to be the drivers
for making this happen? DCMS has a significant role to play but
in terms of the other government departments, how influential,
for example, are the Regional Development Agencies going to be
in terms of making this happen? You talked about the public realm
and of regeneration of visitor attractions. Are they more likely
to be drivers than DCMS?
Ms Malcolm: I can talk from an
Oxford point of view. Certainly our Regional Development Agency,
South East Development Agency, do not take an interest in tourism
to any great degree; they very much leave it to the Regional Tourist
Board, Tourism South East. As such, we suffer in Oxford for that,
in that we are not taken seriously in terms of economic development
and the important role that tourism has in the regional economy.
Mr Hampson: The old system that
we had was a very layered system, where local government played
its part as the destination manager. I still think that is the
appropriate level: local industries can relate to their local
authority or a local authority facilited partnership. It then
went through Regional Tourist Boards to a national board. The
problem we have with the RDA system is that we have nine different
solutions, all of which are untried and untested, all doing different
things, all differently funded with different priorities. The
Regional Development Agencies currently are the ones with the
funds and, where they choose to, they are the ones who can make
a difference but doing that without any policy direction from
the national level. If that system remains, then the answer to
your question is that we need some quality direction from a department,
preferably the sponsor department for tourism. The problem with
it is that DCMS, as was mentioned in the previous evidence session,
is a very small body and it has too many things to do, with too
few staff, just to do its own administration, to answer ministerial
questions, parliamentary questions and all of that. It does not
have that strategic role. We do need that direction and advocacy.
We need somebody to knock other departments' heads together and
say, "This is what needs to be done on a strategic basis."
The delivery can be done through the RDAs, perhaps, and through
partnerships, et cetera, but it is actually getting the system
that people can understand. I do not know if you will get the
opportunity, but I would love you to ask somebody to explain it
to you, to give you a wiring diagram of the current structure
of tourism support from DCMS down to Mrs Goggins' guesthouse in
any one of the nine RDAs. I do not think anyone would be able
to describe it to you, let alone produce a reasonable diagram
that would give you any confidence in the structures that are
in place. That is not a criticism of DCMS, that is not a criticism
of VisitBritain, it is not a criticism of local government, it
is just how it has happened, and it happened because of things
that DCMS did. It is the unintended consequences of them devolving
their power to the RDAs without sitting down and working out what
on earth the consequences of that would be.
Mr Weaver: To make a difference
to places, it is government across all departments. Someone has
to coordinate that. The role for DCMS, picking up that, is that
coordination with clout is really what is required. But there
is a time and place when real differences can be made. In terms
of the different roles of different government departments in
being able to make a difference, I will talk for Blackpool again—no
apologies for that: Defra are investing £54 million to replace
the sea defences in Blackpool; in the Department for Transport,
the Minister for Transport has on his desk at the moment to approve
or not the upgrading of the tram scheme in Blackpool and the Fylde
Coast which runs along that seafront; there is a bid in with the
Living Landmarks Lottery people for cloaking the new sea defences
with some magical, mythical playground experience; through the
RDA and European funding we have received additional resources
to create some major headlands. It is only by bringing all of
those together from different government departments, actioning
coordination at one point in time that you can maximise the opportunities
and make a real difference. There is a further opportunity for
DCLG, in terms of their roles in housing, to intervene in the
neighbourhoods that sit behind the front in Blackpool, both to
make a difference to those communities directly but also to add
value and uplift the value of the investment that is taking place
on the other side of the seafront. That can be brought together
at a local level by the local authority in coordination with the
sub-regional economic partnership and the Regional Development
Agency and government office, but within government, as well,
somebody needs to bring those departments together to ensure that
those key decisions which have a moment in time when they can
all come together that that is made. DCMS coordinating things
with clout, with a very clear strategic view about how it wants
to differentiate a tourism product to develop, can fulfil that
role.
Q72 Chairman: Suzanne Malcolm, you
said the South East RDA did not really take any great interest
in tourism. Can I check with the two Steves: is the experience
dealing with the South West RDA and North West RDA similar or
different?
Mr Vinson: With regards to the
RDAs, they have very much a development focus. They were established
for that purpose and where we have seen the opportunity to get
involved with development projects like the Artificial Reef HMS
Scylla they have got involved and led on that project. The whole
business about marketing is different. It is not within their
way of approaching things and I think the whole business about
inspection on a public product is not the way they tend to go
about things. My colleague was mentioning about the need for some
policy direction and I think there is a need to direct policy
more firmly.
Q73 Chairman: Did you detect that
the South West RDA recognises the importance of tourism and is
active in it?
Mr Vinson: It is active in those
things in which it is specialist, as I mentioned the HMS Scylla
project, but none of the issues in respect of the public product
are seen as key to improving the tourism offer overall. But I
think they would probably see that as being a minefield they would
rather not get involved with.
Mr Weaver: I think the North West
Development Agency have recognised that. I would not say all parts
of the region would be entirely happy, because they all have their
own agendas, but, as a whole, I think it really has recognised
the importance of tourism and leisure. I think it is absolutely
a fair point, from what I have seen, that there is significant
variety across Regional Development Agencies as to how they approach
this but our experience of NWDA is that it is definitely up there.
I think there are issues of structures within the RDAs and the
sub-regional destination management organisations, or however
they want to call themselves. I think that is an issue to be explored,
but as to overall support, that is fine.
Q74 Mr Sanders: Are we throwing good
taxpayers' money away on trying to keep going an industry in Blackpool
that is dying? When people are spending money there, less of that
money is staying in the Blackpool economy today. Going back, when
people went to Blackpool, they might have gone out for a drink
and spent money in a tenancy or a pub that was owned by a local
family business. Nowadays it is Yates's wine bar or a Wetherspoon's
pub. Less of the money that people spend in Blackpool stays in
Blackpool. It goes to shareholders in London. What are we doing
trying to keep going an industry, when most people have voted
with their feet and gone to where they can guarantee the weather
in Spain? Surely you should be diversifying your economy away
from tourism.
Mr Weaver: Thank you. 10 or 12
years ago, Blackpool did make a serious attempt at looking at
diversifying the economy in a substantial way. We would have to
come back to the fundamentals, which we have done, which is that
we are in an industry which nationally and internationally is
growing, and growing faster than many other industries, so it
is not in a declining industry such as steel or mining was at
that moment in time. Our issue is that the product that we have
at the moment is not one that appeals. That does not mean that
there is not a product that can be developed at the seaside for
mass tourism which appeals. The Government's own sea changes report
identified the need and the opportunity for a differentiated quality
mass tourism seaside resort. That is our aim. Quality underpins
it: quality in the public realm, quality in the private investment.
We are absolutely convinced, as are our sub-regional and regional
partners, that can be delivered, with the right level of investment
and the right opportunities in terms of people coming into Blackpool,
creating the jobs and prosperity which are absolutely essential
for local people. It is the jobs and prosperity that keep the
money in Blackpool.
Q75 Mr Sanders: I agree with you,
but, in terms of the sort of jobs we are talking about, do you
know what percentage of new jobs that are created in tourism,
in seaside resorts, are now taken by migrant workers? In my area
it is believed to be around 80%. These are low-value employment
jobs. Is tourism going to create the kind of jobs and wealth and
prosperity that it did in the 1950s and 1960s in the 2010s and
2020s?
Mr Weaver: There are clearly migrant
workers taking jobs in tourism and leisure, as there are in other
industries. At the moment, Blackpool has the second lowest resident
annual wages of any place in the UK.
Q76 Mr Sanders: Do you know what
is number one, Steve? It is another seaside resort.
Mr Weaver: On the figures I have
it was Berwick-on-Tweed. The issue is producing an all-year-round
economy. That is having the right quality of tourism product that
delivers all-year-round jobs—we are convinced we can do
that—and for those jobs to be quality jobs with career prospects.
It is not a given that because a job is in the tourism and leisure
sector it is necessarily a low-paid job with no prospects: it
is the nature of the tourism/leisure centre that you are in. It
is not just the direct jobs in the hotels or the attractions;
it is the services that provide the services to those hotels and
attractions. Alongside developing the reasons for people to come
to Blackpool all year round and to stay in Blackpool, we are developing
the sort of local supply chain in terms of services and the jobs
that will be created as a consequence of that. Yes, if we were
to try to recreate a seasonally-based economy with cash-in-hand
type jobs, then we would not be doing anything for the benefit
of the prosperity of Blackpool or of the UK, but if we produce
an all-year-round, quality seaside resort destination with jobs
that are there which have career prospects, we are doing something
absolutely for local people, which is our first remit, but we
are also able to benefit the wider UK. There is a demand for people
to come to Blackpool from Ireland still. With the right quality
of product for the Ireland and Northern European markets, then
Blackpool and the Fylde Coast will be a gateway to Lancashire
and the South Lake District as well as what will happen on the
Fylde Coast.
Q77 Mr Evans: And the Ribble Valley.
Mr Weaver: Absolutely. It is the
jewel of England, I must say.
Q78 Mr Sanders: Not just you, Steve.
Mr Hampson: Your colleagues in
the CLG Select Committee did an excellent Report on coastal towns.
Unfortunately most of the recommendations were rejected. If the
coastal issue is one in which you are particularly interested,
that report is well worth looking at in detail. Indeed, there
are efforts still going on to get CLG to recognise that Report.
Coastal towns have huge opportunities. There are some residual
barriers, including issues over wages. At the moment it is very
difficult to live and work in a seaside town on the wage levels
relative to the price of properties, so there are all sorts of
issues. That is what is probably driving the migrant workers,
who are prepared to live in garrets, there. We have to do a deal
with these social issues as well. That is not about tourism; that
is a multi-agency/government responsibility to sort out the social
issues. They are not just happening, I would say, in seaside resorts.
I suspect that the tourism industry outside of these streets in
London are probably suffering exactly the same issues.
Q79 Mr Evans: Steve, I am sorry you
did not get the casino. That would clearly have been the shot
in the arm that Blackpool was looking for. What is plan B? You
have spoken about, "If we had the right product [...]"—and
you are almost bordering on Gerald Ratner territory here—but
what is plan B? What are you going to do?
Mr Weaver: Our plan A remains
plan A, which is to create a quality, all-year-round, international,
national resort destination. The plans that we have to do that,
if you put the casino to one side for now, remain exactly the
same: the changes to the public realm, the infrastructure, the
adding of value to the fantastic things that are still there in
Blackpool—the pleasure beach, the Tower, the Winter Gardens,
the piers, et cetera. That all remains the same. There was no
group of people more disappointed than we were when that decision
came out—and, to be frank, I am still recovering from that
decision—but we are looking for something that will provide
that private sector first step, to give confidence to the other
parts of the private sector to come into Blackpool. We are looking
at the people such as Merlin and the other major players to see
if we can give them the reason to make a major investment into
Blackpool—which will not have the same impact. The casino
thing was the right thing for Blackpool, it would have made a
fantastic difference. It was the right place in the UK and I think
it would have had support across both Houses of Parliament with
very little opposition. We were very disappointed by that. But
plan A remains the same: it is the search for the alternative,
private sector, first-step driver. It has become that much more
difficult—and not least because one of the things the casino
would have brought, paid for by the profit, was a new conference
facility, and a symbiosis of what casinos and conferences do and
how they would fit together, together with high quality hotels,
restaurants and bars. As I am sure you are aware, as a consequence
of that debate and on the floor of the House, the offer was made
for a task force to be established. That task force has met. We
have submitted our paper in the task force, which identifies the
component parts, largely in terms of public sector investment
that would be needed, if you like, to replace the casino, to give
that further confidence to the private sector to come into Blackpool.
That includes, across a whole range of things apart from a new
conference facility, the potential for the national V&A Theatre
Museum to move to Blackpool, which would be fantastic for us.
With the archives and the heritage that Blackpool has in the Tower
and the Winter Gardens in terms of its collections, I think it
would be of significant benefit to have the national Theatre Museum
of the V&A. In that task force paper, it is identified as
a whole range of things that are needed for us to maintain that
plan A going forward.
|
