Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
TUESDAY 27 NOVEMBER 2007
MS ROS
PRITCHARD, MR
KURT JANSON,
MR TONY
MILLNS AND
MRS BRIGID
SIMMONDS
Q120 Philip Davies: If you have a
good working relationship with the ministers and yet they still,
as a Government, do not understand the issues caused to your industry
by all of these regulations, why is that? What is it the DCMS
is doing wrong? Why is it not having the influence in Government
that you want it to?
Mrs Simmonds: I think it is a
case of prioritisation. DCMS has a whole range of areas it looks
after and it is a case of which ones you decide to prioritise
at any particular time. What we are saying is they are not necessarily
prioritising the issues important to us for tourism. There is
also a problem in the definition of "tourism". When
is a pub a tourism pub when it is situated in a tourism area?
It is quite difficult to understand that the leisure industry
and the tourism industry is very much one. Let me give you an
example of where it has worked well. Ros and I have just been
round the country for the past three months with every government
office promoting "The Good Practice Guide On Planning for
Tourism", which was not a DCMS piece of legislation (it actually
comes out of DCLG) but it has something that has been hugely successful
in giving examples of good practice in planning, like the need
to understand its material consideration in planning law; to promote.
This is one of the few pieces of planning law which actually has
an economic side to it, which we hope will also be reproduced
in PPS4. That has been very successful: talking to planners; talking
to local authorities; getting a greater understanding between
the two on how we could improve the planning purposes. What we
are looking for is more of that sort of work. As DCMS is going
to be cut, along with other government departments, there is a
danger that many more of their units will become more thematic
rather than being units which are dealing with specific areas,
like tourism.
Q121 Philip Davies: In a word, do
you think that the ministers in DCMS and the Department itself
do not have enough clout in government?
Mrs Simmonds: I think there is
a danger. We would very much support there being more cross-Cabinet
and cross-departmental committees that brought them together on
a regular basis. There was at one time a meeting of ministers
across government departments which now does not take place. It
is a case of us all working together. To give you another example
from the Home Office: we have this issue about immigration, particularly
outside the EU, and we have this system whereby you will get points
depending on your qualifications for bringing people into the
UK. The problem is that does not work with chefs in Indian or
Japanese restaurants who do not normally have the qualifications
which are needed to earn the points to be allowed into the UK,
and yet it is absolutely vital that we have those chefs if those
sorts of restaurants, in the very multiethnic culture that we
have in this country, are going to work in the future.
Mr Millns: There is a very good
piece of text on this which I would just like to read to you.
"Tourism must be a priority for the Government. It is one
of Britain's largest and fastest growing industries and it should
be treated as such. We believe that there should be a major rearrangement
of government departments in order to accommodate the needs of
the tourism sector so that it does not get lost in the oversized
DTI, and not stranded as the Cinderella of government within DCMS.
Tourism needs a proper commitment from the Government commensurate
with its economic importance to the country". That was your
Report in 2003 and we could not put it better ourselves.
Chairman: It is nice to know that select
committees have such huge influence on Government!
Q122 Rosemary McKenna: You have depressed
us all deeply! You are talking specifically at one end of the
market which is the small and medium-sized enterprises, but what
about the other end of the market where we have hotels that are
being run effectively by our cross-European immigrants who are
coming in to work throughout the European Union? My understanding
and certainly from my experience in a hotel I stayed in this weekend
was that there were staff there being paid £3 an hour. You
are telling us that tourism needs more money and yet that is my
experience, and that is the experience I think of a lot of people.
Mrs Simmonds: In this country?
Q123 Rosemary McKenna: In this country.
Mrs Simmonds: We have the national
minimum wage.
Q124 Rosemary McKenna: We understand
about the minimum wage. The minimum wage people have to know about
to make sure that applies. They have to understand the legislation.
They do not understand the legislation and they are coming in
from countries where they are quite happy to be paid £3 an
hour because they are earning so little at home. It is a real
problem in the industry which certainly I cannot get my head round.
Ms Pritchard: There have been
enforcement campaigns that, as the Government changes its focus,
have focussed on the hospitality sector; and there have not been
a raft of prosecutions, so I do not think they have found that
much abuse.
Mrs Simmonds: We would very much
support enforcement campaigns. In fact the Low Pay Commission
is about to embark on a whole series of other campaigns. Within
the membership of the associations we represent, we very much
support that legislation. We have a discussion every year about
the issues, about how much it will go up and we have just finished
those discussions with the Low Pay Commission for next year and
we do believe the rises should fall along with average earnings.
We very much support that legislation, as indeed we support the
holiday entitlement legislation, which is actually going to cost
the industry about 3.2% on payroll costs; and 65% of the tourism
industry actually do not offer the 28 days, which they will have
to offer by 1 April 2009. We have always been very supportive
also of family-friendly policies again, which are quite difficult
in terms of people going off and handing over their maternity
leave or paternity leave.
Q125 Rosemary McKenna: It is all
very well for you to have those policies and views but if your
members or, more importantly, the people who are not members of
your organisation are running their businesses by underpaying
people or by abusing the system then—
Mrs Simmonds: We would support
any enforcement action taken against those businesses.
Q126 Rosemary McKenna: It is not
really persuading us though, is it? You really have to persuade
us.
Mrs Simmonds: It is not, but we
have been very clear in supporting enforcement action. To be honest,
there is very little we can do if they are not members of the
50 or so organisations which make up the Tourism Alliance.
Q127 Mr Evans: Could I cover two
quick things first before going on to the other questions. Tony,
you mentioned Heathrow. At its worst it is reminiscent of the
battle scenes from Mash with helicopters landing; so are
you in favour of what the Government is now proposing as far as
the extra runway and another terminal are concerned?
Mr Millns: Any upgrade in the
quality of service at Heathrow must be welcomed. In order to keep
its position as one of the major world hubs then, yes, I think
expansion at Heathrow is inevitable. That must be accompanied
by a great increase in the quality of service and the throughput—visitor
experience, in fact.
Mrs Simmonds: A lot of work is
actually going on, and VisitBritain are very much part of that,
in looking at welcome and how we do welcome visitors to Britain.
Those discussions are ongoing. I must say, it will have to improve
before we get to welcoming the world in 2012.
Q128 Mr Evans: Are you more in favour
of perhaps splitting Heathrow away from Gatwick and getting different
operators so they compete against one another to raise the standard?
Mrs Simmonds: I do not think we
would have a view on that.
Q129 Mr Evans: On visas, you mention
the fact that a visa standard cost for coming to the UK is about
£63, whereas to go into a Schengen country, where you have
a choice of 15 countries to go into, it is €60, so there
is a substantial difference?
Mr Millns: Yes.
Q130 Mr Evans: Plus there will be
other charges in the UK, which you mentioned. You give one example
in your submission about a family of four coming from India where
it would cost them £420 for taxes and visas to get into the
UK?
Mr Millns: That is before they
get on the plane and arrive at Heathrow.
Q131 Mr Evans: Yes, before they even
get on the plane. From the United States, of course, with the
weakness of the dollar you mention the fact you have fewer of
the high-rolling Americans coming in with their dollars?
Mr Millns: Certainly the figures
for August and September of this year, since the dollar declined,
look pretty depressing.
Q132 Mr Evans: Do you think that
is just cyclical, the fact there is a weak dollar; or do you think
reducing the level of the visa charge would actually make a substantial
difference? Basically you would be asking the Government to lower
the visa charge at the same time as perhaps bringing some of the
other charges down as well. It is unrealistic, is it not?
Mr Millns: I think the charges
are cumulative, and they are accumulative in fact on people's
willingness to travel, particularly to the UK. I think we can
fairly argue when the visa charge was increased, as you will see
from the submission, there was an 11% decease in visitors from
a number of countries including India, where it is, if you like,
a sensitive economic issue. They do have a large amount to pay
before they get on the plane. Yes, overall our feeling is that
the visa charge is a major deterrent. There is some evidence that
tour operators bringing groups will bring groups to Europe and
miss out the UK, because they can get the Schengen visitor to
go round Europe but faced with paying another £63 to come
into the UK, forget that.
Q133 Mr Evans: You have actually
got proof, have you, that the reduced number of people from countries
such as India, Russia, China and Thailand particularly, they are
all going to Europe as opposed to coming into the UK?
Mr Millns: Not necessarily Europe.
They may be travelling to Australia from Thailand or whatever.
The evidence is that Australia is picking up significant trade
in terms of the Far East, China, Thailand et cetera.
Q134 Mr Evans: That is completely
different, is it not, going to Australia or coming to Europe?
Mr Millns: Yes.
Mrs Simmonds: Within Europe you
have to pay an extra cost to have a visa to visit here, and that
is an extra cost, as the Indian example again shows, which acts
as a deterrent.
Q135 Mr Evans: If somebody comes
into Paris, and there are a few countries there, and pays their
€60 for their Schengen visa, are you saying they have to
pay another £60-odd for the British visa on top of that?
Mrs Simmonds: Yes.
Q136 Mr Evans: So that is a great
disincentive for them to come into Britain for a couple of days?
Mr Millns: Exactly.
Q137 Mr Evans: As far as the settlement
is concerned, you have mentioned the reduction in funding for
VisitBritain going down from £50 million to £40 million
in 2010-11. Were you surprised that the settlement was so poor?
Mrs Simmonds: Yes, I think we
were. I think particularly we have spent probably 18 months working
on a national strategy for 2012 and for bringing visitors in from
around the world. After all, we have 200 countries taking part
in the Olympics; we only market to 32-odd countries around the
world now. We were very clear with VisitBritain that this gave
an opportunity to attract younger people to come; and also to
attract visitors who come for the Olympics to do other things
and to go out into the whole of England and the UK—to go
to the Yorkshire Dales, to go to visit the Jurassic coast, whatever
it might be they had that opportunity and we were working on this
strategy. There is no doubt once you have an Olympic city that
people want to come and visit that Olympic city. Some of them
come beforehand, particularly business tourists, particularly
important to our UK economy; some of them come there, or they
come as repeat visits. There is plenty of evidence from round
the world, from Queensland, from training camps, that that is
the case. VisitBritain put in a bid to spend probably about £20
million, starting in Beijing next year, to market that. I think
we are absolutely amazed that none of that funding has been forthcoming
because we had this opportunity. Of all the benefits of holding
the Olympics here tourism was meant to be the greatest. £2.1
billion was meant to accrue to the tourism industry from the Olympics.
We seem to have been throwing that away by not providing any funding.
Q138 Mr Evans: I think somebody else
is going to come in on the Olympics specifically. In your estimation
what is the impact going to be on tourism, either domestically
generated or from abroad into the UK, by the funding arrangements
for VisitBritain? What is the impact going to be on the number
of tourists coming in?
Mrs Simmonds: We do not have overall
figures for that. It is the ability to market to those tourists
that is our main concern about this. It is not all the other things
that happen that VisitBritain take part in—it is the ability
to market and to have a coordinated marketing campaign which is
what Ros was talking about at the beginning. Whether you are visitor
attractions, which are one of the main reasons why people come
here, they cannot afford to be going round Arizona marketing the
Tower of London. There is a need for national tourism; it is a
role of government that is fulfilled everywhere else throughout
Europe and throughout the world with a range of budgets. I think
we were hugely disappointed, having had nine years of no additional
funding at all in comparison to the overall figures that have
gone elsewhere from DCMS, that yet again we did not receive any
more funding this year.
Q139 Mr Evans: Because you did not
try and sell Arizona the Tower of London! Have you got any comparisons
with other European countries specifically (that is our competition
on our doorstep) on how much money they are spending on their
VisitFrance or VisitGermany groups? Are you able to indicate what
is happening now?
Mr Janson: There is a wide range
of expenditure through Europe. It is very difficult to draw comparisons
because of the way that overseas tourist boards are structured
from the national figure and local levels. The different structures
make it difficult to come up with an overall figure. We could
probably go away and try and determine that.
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