Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
TUESDAY 27 NOVEMBER 2007
MS JULIET
WILLIAMS, MR
JEFF ALEXANDER
AND MR
JAMES BERRESFORD
Q180 Philip Davies: James, in your
submission you criticised the frequency of changes to senior tourism
staff within DCMS. Can you give us any examples of why that has
been a big problem?
Mr Berresford: I do not want to
overplay that as an issue but I think the Allnutt Study has already
been cited as a disappointment in that it has not been implemented
fully. I think there have been several changes within DCMS personnel
since the time Allnutt was put in place and published. I think
that probably is an example. What I am pleased to say is that
through the English Tourism Intelligence Partnership, we have
got DCMS and we have got the RDAs and others involved and we are
at least beginning to break the ice around data issues
Q181 Philip Davies: We heard from
the Tourism Alliance that they seemed to be concerned with the
effectiveness of DCMS in providing a case for the tourism industry
within Government. Is it your view that these changes have been
part of the cause of their ineffectiveness to support the tourism
industry within Government?
Mr Berresford: I do not think
I would be as specific as that but I think what I would support
the Tourism Alliance on is that we need more cross-departmental
support and direction for tourism. That is what we mean in our
submission. We believe that tourism is a serious industry. It
is a cross-cutting industry, it is absolutely a cross-cutting
industry, and we are increasingly using the term "visitor
economy" because we want it to be a feature in place shaping,
we want it to have a feature in skills and business support and
actually in the DCMS themselves we want to be absolutely sure
that culture, arts and the product itself are married very closely
to the tourism element. It is, after all, that product which people
come to this country to see.
Q182 Philip Davies: Also in your
submission you stated that: "it would not be appropriate
to indulge in a copycat response to high levels of promotional
spend by other countries [...]" We have heard lots of people
criticising the cuts in the budget for VisitBritain, do we take
it from your submission there that you do not think there is a
problem with cutting the budget for VisitBritain?
Mr Berresford: Our emphasis is
very much on getting the product right, that is where we believe
effort and money should be targeted and that is where the RDAs
are delivering their support at the current time. I think in our
submission we are outlining the fact that the solution does not
lie solely in marketing.
Q183 Philip Davies: It does not lie
solely in marketing?
Mr Berresford: No.
Q184 Philip Davies: But you indicated
it lies partly in marketing. Is the cut in the budget of VisitBritain
a problem or not? I am not sure whether you think it is.
Ms Williams: Can I answer that
perhaps in a slightly different way because the driver for Partners
for England, which we have talked about a lot, was the creation
of economies of scale in the marketing and management of tourism
in England because we were more than well aware of the duplication
of effort between local authorities, the regions and, indeed,
nationally. We knew that the ability to be able to release budget
as a result of not stepping on one another's toes in order to
develop a better structure as far as the management of tourism
in England was concerned, to ensure that the marketing effort
was properly focused and to pay attention to skills, the welcome
and service and so on, was why we started Partners for England
in the first place. We knew that the amount of duplication of
effort was something that we needed to manage but, on the other
side of that, we needed to look at the structure of the sector
as far as tourism for England was concerned because it was not
entirely appropriate.
Q185 Philip Davies: It is a pretty
straight question, is the cut in funding to VisitBritain a problem
or not?
Mr Berresford: Personally, I think
it is too early to say.
Ms Williams: So do I.
Mr Berresford: The DCMS have announced
that there will be a review and we will want to participate fully
in that review to make sure that VisitBritain are adequately resourced.
VisitBritain do an excellent job. They do an excellent job on
behalf of UKplc and much of the money that we put out from our
own tourism structures in the regions goes to support international
campaigns. There is no point us doing international campaigns,
it is the purpose of VisitBritain to do those campaigns. We would
participate fully in that review and if we felt that VisitBritain
required the funding that they believe they do then we would support
that.
Ms Williams: I think it depends,
as a result of that review, ultimately what the remit for VisitBritain
turns out to be.
Q186 Philip Davies: Is there an issue
of what some people might uncharitably call empire building in
the sense that what you would like to see is no more money going
to VisitBritain but giving it to more Regional Development Agencies?
Ms Williams: No, no.
Q187 Philip Davies: You want the
funding to do it?
Ms Williams: Not at all.
Mr Berresford: We do not. We are
ostensibly not marketing organisations, we use other vehicles
and we do support VisitBritain. A great example of that recently
has been the American Society of Travel Writers which we jointly
funded with partners and VisitBritain to get all the American
travel writers over to the North of England. No, we are not about
empire building, absolutely not about empire building. VisitBritain
are a marketing organisation, they cannot spend the money where
we spend the money, and that is towards product improvement.
Q188 Chairman: Can I turn to the
effectiveness of RDAs. We have had evidence that it is variable
looking across all the RDAs. We were told that you are amongst
the better ones by our previous witnesses. Can I start off with
the South East of England. You might have heard that when we last
took evidence the tourism office of Oxford City Council said,
"Our RDA, South East Development Agency, do not take an interest
in tourism to any great degree". How do you respond to that?
Mr Alexander: I disagree. We put
considerable amounts of money relative to the size of our budget
directly into tourism. Into Tourism South East, which is our local
delivery partner, we put in £2.2 million. You need to compare
that with the £740,000 which is what is in our single pot
funding from the DCMS for tourism, so we have more than doubled
the funding that was built into our own budget for tourism. That,
though, I would suggest is a small part of the investment that
we make into tourism, that is a direct industry support element.
Some of the other funding we put in is more difficult to disaggregate.
For example, the investment that we put into regeneration, in
Oxford itself we have invested £6 million into the Oxford
Castle Development to ensure that they have a very, very high
quality of standard hotel and visitor attraction that links the
heart of Oxford to a more deprived part of Oxford. If you look
around the South coast, the huge amounts of investment, again
in our terms relative to our budget, we have committed £18
million to a very major certainly tourism related investment in
Brighton where the local authority have said the number one attraction
for them is the conference centre in terms of their economy generally
and including their business tourism. We have invested considerably
and do invest our investment in skills, our investment in business
support. As I said in answer to one of the earlier questions,
what we try and do, again working very closely with Tourism South
East, is make sure that with this investment, which is not solely
done or in some cases even primarily done for the benefit of tourism,
we do get the maximum benefit for the tourism sector.
Q189 Philip Davies: Do you not find
it worrying that the tourism officer of what must be one of the
greatest tourist attraction cities, greatest tourism potential
in your area, thinks you are not interested in tourism?
Mr Alexander: Yes, of course it
is very worrying that she said that and we have since had discussions
with her authority. We are as of one now.
Q190 Philip Davies: You are as of
one?
Mr Alexander: We are as of one.
We now understand fully. I think what you were not getting, and
it is not for me to qualify what someone else has said to this
Committee, was a full understanding of the broader investment
that I have just outlined. No doubt they would like to see us
investing more than the £2.2 million that we are able to
invest. I have emphasised how we have more than doubled the DCMS
funding. If you contrast that, say, with the core funding we provide
to other sectors, if you take a sector like aerospace, which is
also a very important sector within our region, we provide core
funding to our sector consortium, so the equivalent of Tourism
South East, of £250,000 a year. In terms of that sort of
core funding tourism probably gets in the region of four to five
times more than other sectors get in terms of that core element.
I do not think that supports what was said, I am afraid.
Chairman: It sounds a bit like an Alan
West/Gordon Brown type conversation.
Q191 Mr Sanders: Oxfordshire and
the Cotswolds, the Cotswolds are in both Oxfordshire South East
Region and the South West Region—
Ms Williams: And the West Midlands.
Q192 Mr Sanders: —how do you,
as RDAs, market a clearly identifiable tourist area that crosses
your boundaries?
Ms Williams: I think we are getting
to start to be able to address those kinds of issues but probably
the best example, Adrian, is Hadrian's Wall of how to do this
and model it.
Mr Berresford: Can I give an example
of that because I think that is something we are very proud of.
Hadrian's Wall as an attraction stretches from sea to sea and
since 1978 there has been no growth in tourism associated spend
along the Wall. We and our colleagues in One North East recognised
that. We formed with them a joint management company to address
that, to bring together the disparate promotion and development
of tourism along the Wall and have a robust body that we both
have an interest in which is given arm's length control to do
development and marketing. I think that is a great example of
cross RDA work, not just in tourism. There are other examples
and the oft quoted phrase that tourists do not understand administrative
boundaries we completely subscribe to. In Cheshire, our tourist
board in Cheshire works with the Derbyshire Tourist Board to promote
Peaks and Plains across the piece. The tourist board in Cheshire
works with the Wales Tourist Board because visitors will go to
Chester and then in to North Wales so it makes absolute sense
that to the benefit of either region, whichever that region may
be, we do get involved with our tourist boards in joint development.
Ms Williams: We do similarly,
of course, with the Cotswolds and the New Forest, for example,
with Hampshire. The reason I drew attention to the Wall was I
think that starts to create the kind of model that the rest of
them need to pay attention to and start to examine going forward.
Q193 Chairman: Can I turn to the
South West agency because Caradon District Council told us of
your RDA: "It is active in those things in which it is specialist,
but none of the issues in respect of the public product are key
to improving the tourism offer at all. I think they would probably
see that as being a minefield they would rather not get involved
in."
Ms Williams: Challenging! As far
as we are concerned, actually we spend a huge amount of time and
effort in terms of developing both the product and, indeed, the
skills to support it, together with the marketing of it. Quite
plainly Caradon has escaped and also obviously needs to be re-engaged.
Q194 Chairman: You need to have a
conversation.
Ms Williams: Indeed, that is exactly
right.
Chairman: Nigel Evans I will hand to
as the expert on the North West.
Q195 Mr Evans: Hardly, but a representative
there. James, how much money do you totally spend on tourism within
the North West development area?
Mr Berresford: In direct support
of the tourism structures we spend £5 million direct support.
That is for, call them what you may: tourist boards, destination
management organisations, I am not too worried about the terminology,
I am much more concerned about how industry bodies effectively
deliver support on behalf of businesses themselves.
Q196 Mr Evans: You go about checks
on an annual basis with a number of organisations within the North
West that are supporting tourism all over the North West?
Mr Berresford: We have five recognised
tourist boards, five organisations, around destinations, so we
have one for Cumbria, one for Lancashire and Blackpool, one for
Manchester, one for Merseyside and one for Chester and Cheshire.
Those are recognised destinations that businesses themselves can
relate to. They cannot relate on a tourism basis to something
like the North West because if you are operating a bed and breakfast
in Ribble Valley or a bed and breakfast in South Lakes, you cannot
necessarily relate your product to the North West. It is hugely
important that you relate to the brand that is your local brand.
We have created and worked with local authorities and tourism
businesses, five tourist boards, they have a three year agreement
with us, annually reviewed, which is a service level agreement,
simply not handing out a cheque, they do things for which they
are contracted. On a regional level, each of the sub-regional
tourist boards deliver the regional strategy sub-regionally, they
also deliver sub-regional strategy on behalf of their own businesses.
Q197 Mr Evans: How big is your team?
Mr Berresford: My team?
Q198 Mr Evans: Yes?
Mr Berresford: Eight people.
Q199 Mr Evans: You have eight people
working on ensuring that there is proper audit of the money spent
but also doing other things on top?
Mr Berresford: Yes. We have somebody
who oversees research because, as we have heard already how important
it is for us to mine and collect data, we recognise that in each
of our sub-regions we have somebody who oversees research. I maintain
hitherto many decisions have not been based on adequate policy
information. The only way you get that adequate policy information
is knowing how the industry is operating, so it is key that we
have consistent data collection and interpretation across the
region but each of our tourist boards have responsibility for
gathering it locally. We are providing the consistency, if you
like. We have somebody who works on skills, again I talked earlier
about the need for local delivery on skills, but you need regional
co-ordination and links to the national skills strategy, and we
have somebody who oversees that. I have somebody who has relationship
management and I have somebody who has strategy management in
their role and I have somebody who manages the relationships with
tourist boards and the contractual arrangements. We are a lean
and mean team, we are not a tourist board. We are not a tourist
board, we are not a delivery agent.
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