Examination of Witnesses (Questions 540
- 559)
WEDNESDAY 12 MARCH 2008
MS AVIVA
PEARSON, MR
ALAN ROBINSON
AND MR
MALCOLM BELL
Q540 Mr Hall: I seem to think there
might be three figures coming forward.
Ms Pearson: Our spend is £597,000.
Q541 Mr Hall: You say that has been
cut by 111,000.
Ms Pearson: No, that is what it
is now. I was £111,000 richer a year ago.
Mr Robinson: In terms of our spend
on tourism, it is £180,000 and £46,000 of that is marketing
and the other aspect is salaries. As I have said, it is very difficult
to break this down. Clearly we invest an awful lot in our environment,
whether that is enhancement or maintenance, toilets, street cleaning,
beach cleaning. We tend to invest more because we know our environment
underpins our economy, and I can give you figures, but everybody
spends something on street maintenance and public realm maintenance.
For example, on toilets we spent £780,000, street cleaning
£714,000 and beach cleaning £65,000.
Mr Bell: 2.2 million with approximately
850,000 on marketing, that is directly and indirectly because
we work with the Southwest Regional Development Agency on image
and brand.
Q542 Mr Hall: Is marketing the biggest
factor of your expenditure?
Mr Bell: No, tourism development.
It is issues to do with sustainable tourism, e-tourism projects
and other activities, research.
Q543 Mr Hall: In some of the evidence
you have given already, and it is an accepted point, you have
said that spending on tourism by local authorities is discretionary
and budgets are subject to whatever the vagaries of the local
government settlement are and what your councillors are prepared
to put on the council tax. How helpful is the decision by the
Department for Communities and Local Government to reduce the
performance indicators down from 2,000 to 198 and not include
one of them that involves either tourism or the welcome?
Mr Bell: My view on that is it
is those sorts of decisions that potentially have a really rattling
earthquake potentially on tourism. The old saying is you cannot
manage what you do not measure, but equally I would reverse that
and say people tend to manage the measures and, therefore, if
you have not got a measure you do not manage it and it is up to
the senior people when they are looking at assessments and scores
on the doors and if it does not contribute to that it is not important.
That is just human nature. That is the danger we are in. That
is a general comment.
Mr Robinson: I think that raises
the issue in terms of Public Investment of how important tourism
is. As I said before, it is a discretionary activity. It is quite
interesting that the Government is thinking of making local authorities
responsible for economic development as part of a statutory requirement,
but tourism perhaps is not being seen as a fundamental part of
economic development. In fact, the fact that is being managed
from within DCMS, if you like, rather than, I am going to call
it the Department for Trade and Industry because I have completely
forgotten the name—
Q544 Mr Hall: Business Enterprise
and Regulatory Reform.
Mr Robinson: That is right. I
think that perhaps indicates an approach that is being taken in
relation to tourism. Is it about economic development or is it
about something else?
Q545 Mr Hall: Could I ask you a slightly
different question. We know that you have a strategy for tourism
for the English Riviera and we were told this afternoon about
the mayoral vision. Are they dovetailed or is there some tension
between those two?
Ms Pearson: No, they are dovetailed.
The aspirations within the mayoral vision are pretty much what
we would like to see happening in this Bay. If I could tack on
to what Alan was saying. In the Sub-National Review, when they
talk about economic development possibly becoming a statutory
function I would like to think that in areas such as the larger
resorts in the UK tourism would therefore become a statutory service
because it is the economic development of the area. It is the
major part of the development of the economy in areas such as
this. It will be interesting to see what actually happens in the
future with how economic development in itself becomes a statutory
function. Let us hope it does become that.
Q546 Chairman: Aviva, you have told
us you are £111,000 poorer than you were.
Ms Pearson: I am.
Q547 Chairman: So what are you now
going to stop doing?
Ms Pearson: I am going to start
doing more on raising revenue. I am not going to stop doing anything
because we are going along the right track and that has been proven
by the latest surveys: Devon Trends, Torbay Visitors'
Surveys and the Value of Tourism surveys. We are obviously
on the right road and it is not the time to stop doing anything,
so we are going to start doing more: start more events; start
getting more tickets out there; start selling like we have never
sold before; more online sales; we have shops integrated with
all of our TICs and we are going to go out there and become more
commercial, which we can do because we are a public-private agency.
Q548 Chairman: So you are going to
try and ensure you make up the whole of the shortfall you have
lost from local authority funding?
Ms Pearson: I have got the team
to do it and we are going to do it.
Q549 Rosemary McKenna: I do not understand
the argument you are putting forward between economic development
and tourism. If tourism is your main industry in the area then
clearly that should be where most of the economic development
money goes. Why is it not part of the economic development budget
of the authority?
Mr Robinson: It is part of the
process. The point I was trying to make was at the moment it is
a discretionary function and when budgets are under pressure it
tends to be discretionary functions that suffer. The issue is
that because of the way the tourism industry works in a rural
area, because so much of it is seasonal, much of it is relatively
poorly paid, much of it is part-time, and in terms of improving
our economy we need to diversify and encourage other forms of
employment. Our recent focus has been to try and encourage higher
paying jobs to come in and give us a broader diversified economy.
Tourism is important but we have spent a lot of time attracting
other forms of employment to give us a broader economic base.
Q550 Rosemary McKenna: Is there still
disagreement between the various bodies about the importance of
the RDAs now that they have got tourism as part of their strategy?
I certainly was very impressed by Juliet Williams when she came
before the Committee and seemed extremely focused on how they
could help the tourist industry.
Mr Robinson: I guess from our
point of view at the moment we do not know what will be the implications.
There must be a potential risk with yet another regional body
involved that there is perhaps confusion, perhaps more bureaucracy.
I am not sure that we are in a position to make a judgment on
whether it is going to be successful or not, at least from the
South Hams' perspective.
Mr Bell: Maybe I am in a better
position to answer. We work very closely with the Southwest RDA
and I do see the issues as dovetailed, to use your term. We are
the delivery agent for lots of practical things to do with tourism.
You have to look at things like the Rural Development Programme
for England with large amounts of European money and a large chunk
of that, about 14 million, for the development of rural tourism.
That is where we work very closely with the RDA. The same is true
on the skills agenda because that is where it crosses. Sometimes
I do believe that tourism has suffered from being in a tourism
silo and not part of a more integrated approach. To me, tourism
has several facets. It is an economic force and these days that
is probably not so much of an argument because the economy is
not doing badly. Increasingly, it delivers on the cultural agenda,
the sporting agenda, and I was even talking to the play people
today about the new play initiative and play agenda to integrate
play into the tourism activities. Tourism can be a tool for many
things and that is where it is important it is integrated at local
level, but the regional integration is absolutely vital or else
you have got the Economic Development Agency dealing with the
economy and then you have got this strange little thing over here
called "tourism", which I think is disastrous if it
is out there on a limb and that is why I am delighted with the
way we work.
Q551 Alan Keen: We are a scrutiny
committee, we have not got executive power, but our report will
go back to DCMS and they will have to respond to it. We came here
to get the flavour of how it works at a very local level, and
thank you very much for entertaining us, so is there anything
you would like us to say in our report that is going to DCMS?
Each of you has spoken very well about the problems of allocating
money at different levels, but what would you like us to say?
Mr Bell: Shall I start with my
shopping list?
Ms Pearson: You get your shopping
list and I will get mine.
Q552 Alan Keen: You do not need to
be diplomatic, we will turn it into diplomacy.
Mr Bell: Not because I agree with
it and not just ranting and raving for more money and tax cuts,
because there does not seem to be much opportunity for that, I
have looked at a shopping list of what should be easy to do without
having to raise taxes or find money from other sources. There
is a challenge on the better regulation issue. You have probably
been bored with the latest visa farce, not only the cost but to
get a visa to come to the UK you have to fill it out in English.
Q553 Chairman: We have heard a lot
of evidence about visas but we have not heard that specifically.
Mr Bell: Oh, yes, to get a visa
to come to the UK you have to fill it out in English. I would
suggest that if we were going to China we would find it quite
difficult to fill out a form in Mandarin. Those sorts of barriers,
to my mind, are just totally unacceptable. Likewise, I think we
could be a lot smarter. There are things going on at the moment
within fire regs and the food regulations about scores on the
doors. I will not go into the details but we need to get a sensible
approach to tourism. If there are issues and they need enforcing
then enforce them, but we need sensible approaches and, again,
tourism seems to be excluded. On the specifics, one of the things
we are very keen on in the southwest is sustainability and green
tourism, and all accolades to South Hams where it started, but
one of the challenges is how do we get more companies to get accredited
to get the recognition up. I think there are easy wins within
government circles. If the Government is keen on and supportive
of sustainability why are the accreditation schemes not seen as
part of the scoring profile on procurement of government services?
If most hotels, including this one, which is green accredited,
knew to get a government contract it would help to be green accredited
you could give the biggest boost to the accreditation of businesses
to become green accredited and all the positive things that come
with that with no actual money. The other area I would plug away
at as a keen supporter, and I know it has already been raised,
is double summertime, a one billion, two billion boost with no
cost to anybody. The farmers in the southwest support it.
Chairman: I am afraid, however, that
last Friday the House of Commons did not.
Q554 Rosemary McKenna: Again!
Mr Bell: It is just remarkable
that there is such a simple thing that does not need money that
would boost things, help with safety, help the economy, help lots
of things in the food industry. The other one is to get real support
for what was raised in the Partners for England initiative about
getting all the players in a room with a Partners for England
type approach and agree the game plan. Sometimes in tourism, as
you have probably noticed, it does seem a rather crowded pitch
of players tripping over each other and occasionally missing the
goal, and that is me being polite, and we do need that rallying
call. The last one, I will not go on too long, I have got a longer
list, is the most underused tool in public administration and
that is the planning system. We have real challenges sometimes
when we talk about quality of quite dated hotel stock at times,
which is not their problem but the ability to do negotiations
with property developers to say, "You can demolish that hotel
and go for your fancy apartments", which are very profitable,
"but we want a serviced hotel or an apartment hotel and some
issues addressed on affordable housing for staff sorted within
the same deal". That does not need government money, again,
it just needs a new approach to the planning rules. We need to
refresh our resorts, we need to refresh our areas, we have buildings
that are quite old and need supporting. There is a very vibrant
property market still, let us see how we get a decent deal which
means we keep our holiday accommodation, they get their profits
and we sort out some of the other issues. That is a quick gambol
through what I would say are things that would not necessarily
cost Government money, we just need to be smarter, if I may be
so rude.
Q555 Chairman: A quick shopping list?
Ms Pearson: I am just going to
hit on two things, because Malcolm has pretty much covered the
other ones, double summertime and also Green Tourism Business
Scheme. Number one is really seeing if especially for the resorts
we can bring tourism back as a statutory function, which it should
be because it supports the largest sector of the economy as well
as the jobs and the emphasis has to be brought back for that to
be a statutory function, especially in the resort areas. I would
say as many areas as possible where the economy is mainly dependent
on tourism, but definitely in the case of coastal tourism. The
answer to everything is not supposed to be money, but it is going
to sound like all my answers are about this. Number two is investing
within the coastal resorts in the United Kingdom, which is extremely
important. I think more and more people are going to get sick
of taking off their shoes and belts and queuing for hours and
sometimes it costs more to park at the airport than your actual
ticket. I think there is going to come a time, especially with
the price of oil going up and up, when those cheap tickets will
not be so cheap. I do feel we are going to be back on the right
foot in a very short period of time. More and more people are
looking at doing short breaks to areas such as ours. I would also
like to see more investment into VisitBritain, into marketing
us overseas, and allowing the local authorities, especially in
coastal resorts and areas where tourism is a high priority, to
market ourselves because we are the most efficient people to do
it, we are on the ground, we are talking to the businesses, we
know what is happening and it would be easier for us to orchestrate
not only the marketing but do the statistical analysis and have
more robust figures so when we do go to inquiries such as this
we can say to you without a doubt, "We know X per cent of
people say this and the return is Y per cent" and currently
we cannot do that because everybody and their dog is doing it.
Those are my two points.
Q556 Chairman: Thank you.
Mr Robinson: A quick couple of
points from South Hams' perspective. If tourist support does become
a statutory requirement, fine, but can we make the plea that it
comes with funding. We have lots of statutory requirements emerging
and never have the funding, in fact the funding reduces. I will
make a couple of other points just to reinforce the issue about
sustainable green tourism. Bear in mind if we are going to get
people to change their behaviour as part of the climate change
agenda we have got a real opportunity to market holidaying at
home, "Have a great time and reduce your impact on the planet",
and that is something we should be putting through in national
quality grading schemes. One other point that nobody has raised
but it has started to be talked about is in relation to the welcome
and the recruitment and retention of quality staff, which is really
important in the service industry, and the respect we give to
people who work in the tourism sector that is pretty key. Low
pay in this sector is a real problem and there is an incredible
high cost of housing in South Hams, I am sure you are aware of
it. One of the issues around promoting yourself as a holiday area
is when you get over 10% of your stock is second homes and we
need to remember the implications that has for the other parts
of the local community. If you add second homes plus the stock
that is then let out as holiday cottages it is quite a difficult
balance between promoting tourism and recognising the wider sustainability
of rural communities. That is a really big issue.
Q557 Alan Keen: Could I ask you about
second homes. There must be a big difference between a family
that has a second home and comes three or four times a year and
the rest of the time it is empty and somebody who has a second
home but lets it out part of the time. Could you explain how that
works and how you regard the two different types of purchase?
Mr Robinson: Our perception is
that people who rent out their accommodation are probably more
beneficial to our economy because you tend to have people there
more often and they will spend more readily in the local community.
The issue around second homes is clearly those people do make
a contribution to the local community but it is a question of
how often it is occupied and clearly it is incredibly difficult
if those properties are left empty. The problem is that is mainly
anecdotal. Blowing the trumpet for South Hams, we have also got
Beacon status for our work around affordable housing as well as
green tourism and we are using some of the Beacon money we have
got to do a review of the impact of second homes and to test whether
our assumptions about it is better to have holiday cottages let
as opposed to second homes is actually true. We hope that document
will be published later this year, so I may be able to give you
the answers.
Q558 Alan Keen: Is there anything
you would like us to say about it?
Mr Robinson: It is about this
balance in promoting tourism. In a rural area where it is difficult
to deliver new affordable housing, cheap housing, the more attractive
your area is and the more you promote tourism, the more risk there
is that accommodation goes to second homes. It is about the whole
agenda of rural communities and their future vitality and viability.
I do not know the answer to that but it is something we need to
be aware of.
Mr Bell: If I could add something.
One of the great successes over the last ten years has been the
sheer quality of some of the self-catering stock we have got.
As Alan said, if second homes are rented then you are talking
of several hundred pounds to even over a thousand pounds per week
plus the food and drink market, and we all know they tend to use
more local food and drink than us locals. To a certain level it
is a contributor and it is healthy, but it is when it goes too
far and starts to decay the community and take something away
from the experience. One of the challenges we are going to have
is what is the right level and composition. Certainly as a driving
force for tourism our self-catering market is quite significant
and the quality of our market. A slight bit of levity at the end
maybe. I was talking to a Devon farmer the other day who had been
in tourism for 30 years and he said, "I don't understand
this any more. When I got into tourism the visitors had the mattress
after I'd finished with it, now I'm having to spend a fortune
on their bathrooms, 20,000 here and 30,000 there, and have spectacular
houses I couldn't afford to live in". That is the way the
market has gone and self-catering has become a big transformation,
but self-catering can also be rented second homes and if you end
up with a village just full of them then you actually destroy
the product.
Q559 Alan Keen: Your comment on visitors
coming down and drinking more than you do, we could have taken
offence if you had come tomorrow and said that, but you have not
seen us yet! I am especially interested in air transport because
my constituents provide more jobs at Heathrow than any other constituency
but also suffer the noise, so I have a fascination and a particular
duty to talk about air transport. What difference has Exeter Airport
and its expansion made? What else would you like to see happen,
integration in any way on a national basis?
Mr Bell: Having come across as
being overly critical of low-cost airlines, the one thing about
operators like Flybe is that they have reconnected us to the north
and Scotland. If I go back in the statistics, in the 1970s we
used to have a lot of visitors from Yorkshire and the northeast,
and particularly Scotland, but that was when they were on their
fortnight breaks so it was worth the pain of coming down on the
road system, but for a lot of those customers on a short break,
three or four days, the thought of driving down from Newcastle
for a couple of days in the southwest and driving back or, even
dare we say, on the train is not attractive. Flybe and people
like that have really opened up routes. On the overseas market,
although we have done better we have not done as well because
we have not got the gateways. What I hope, and this is getting
round to answering your question, is places like Exeter Airport
can reconnect us with past markets but, more importantly, with
our wonderful coastal path and coast generally, connect us to
Central Europe a lot more with some of those other low-cost operators
so that the Germans, the Dutch, the Belgians and, increasingly,
the Hungarians and Czechs can come here and experience our product
by flying straight into the region. No disrespect to Heathrow
or Gatwick, they are not the most wonderful experience to come
through and if you are only on a short break and want to do walking
or experience the southwest you do not want to have to go through
London.
Ms Pearson: We have just invested
into a campaign with Flybe because we believe we can regain a
lot of the markets in the north as well as the European markets.
According to their figures, 700,000 people both enter and exit
Exeter Airport on Flybe and, especially because we are doing a
campaign with Avis quite soon, we are looking at people who are
going to fly in, get a car and come down for their short break.
Right now they are marketing us on their website and they are
doing an e-marketing campaign with us. We are really investing
in this because we see this as a very positive tool for getting
new customers and hopefully some of the old customers back.
Mr Robinson: From our perspective
it is difficult to make a judgment. It is a double-edged sword
because it may be easier to come in but it is also a lot easier
to go out. We would have had local tourism within the region which
may have come to the South Hams from Bristol, say, but may decide
to go abroad rather than come down to us. It is difficult for
us to make a judgment from our perspective.
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