Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
20-39)
RT HON
JOHN HUTTON
MP, LIEUTENANT GENERAL
PETER WALL
CBE, RT HON
DAVID MILIBAND
MP AND SIR
MARK LYALL
GRANT
28 OCTOBER 2008
Q20 Sir John Stanley: I accept
your points about what the constitution says, but how adequate
a protection is that in real terms? All the evidence so far suggests
that, no matter what is written in the constitution, on the ground
women in many parts of Iraq are facing a pretty torrid time.
David Miliband: I do not know
whether it is right to say "all the evidence". The picture
is more balanced than that. When I talked to Des Browne after
his visits to Basra or to John after his visit, or when I talk
to our own locally employed staffmen and women whom I met
in Baghdadyes, they can point to parts of the country where
basic rights are under threat, but equally they can point to parts
of the country where those rights are being enforced. The important
thing is that we continue to make very clear, not only through
the work of John Hutton and myself but through Ann Clwyd's work
as the Prime Minister's representative on human rights in Iraq,
that that remains a vital part of the conclusion of foreign engagement
in Iraq on the military side. The other thing to say, because
I am sure that we will come to this in relation to Afghanistan,
is that there are huge differences between Afghanistan and Iraq.
That will be a recurring theme in this discussion. We are talking
about a rich country and a poor country; a country with defined
borders and a country without them; a country with a history of
a centralised and effective state and a country without. It is,
however, striking that in both contexts the process of building
a national army presents one set of challenges, and the process
of building a decent police force that is free of corruption and
is able to ensure that citizens' rights are protected is a very
different story. In both Iraq and Afghanistan, the police side
is more challenging than the army side, although the Iraqi police
force is further ahead than the Afghan one.
Chairman: We will come to Afghanistan
later.
Q21 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: I would
like to ask our witnesses about the number and status of prisoners
in Iraq, specifically the number of detaineespeople in
detention who have not been charged with or convicted of a crime.
How many detainees are there in Iraq, and how many of them were
detained by British forces and handed over to the Iraqi Government
or to other coalition forces?
John Hutton: I will ask the general
to come to that, but as far as UK detainees are concerned, as
I said earlier, there are only two. In the context of US detainees,
I think that there are more than 20,000. I could not comment on
the number of those who may at some point have been detained by
UK security forces, but as I said, we only have two detainees.
We are not fulfilling a role that involves detaining any more
Iraqis on the UK base, but
Q22 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: I need
to know the number of detainees originally detained by British
forces. That is a figure that we must have.
John Hutton: As I said, at the
moment, there are only two, but as for the total number that have
been detained historically, I do not have it. I do not know whether
Lieutenant General Wall: We will
have to go through our records and offer you some evidence in
writing, if we may, on both those issues: first, as the Secretary
of State said, those whom we have detained in our own internment
facility in the south and subsequently released in accordance
with the formal procedures that we have been running; and, secondly,
those whom we may have passed into American or Iraqi custody.
Q23 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: I am rather
surprised that you do not have that number, given the damage done
to the coalition effort by past ill-treatment of Iraqi detainees,
but the Chairman and I look forward to receiving the numbers.
Let me ask an allied question
Lieutenant General Wall: Can I
come back on that point? We only pass detainees to those people
about whom we have absolute assurances on handling and contact.
We are in regular contact with the International Committee of
the Red Cross and others about how that is done, and we have very
clear-cut memorandums of understanding with other parties. I can
reassure you that that is being properly conducted.
Q24 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: That touches
my second question. Are we certain that those assurances are valid,
and do you accept that we have a responsibility under human rights
legislation, including the Human Rights Act 1998, for the subsequent
treatment of detainees? In other words, when we capture somebody
in Iraq and hand them over, whether to American forces or the
Iraqi Government, we retain a responsibility. We must not just
receive an assurance, but we must follow that through to ensure
that they are not subject to inhuman and degrading treatment.
John Hutton: Yes.
Q25 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: You accept
that that is our responsibility. Are you sure that, on the ground,
people who have been detained by British forces are not subsequently
ill treated?
John Hutton: We are. With your
indulgence, Chairman, I will have to set out more detail on this
matter for the Committee in writing. I am happy to do that. We
expect the highest standards to be followed and we always look
for clear agreements from the Iraqi security authorities that
the proper procedures will be followed. That is important.
Q26 Chairman: I want to be clear
about what has just been said. Several hundred people were detained
in 2003-04, and many will have been passed on to the Americans
or the Iraqis or released. In recent months and years, there has
been a considerable rundown of the numbers of people who are held.
Secretary of State, are you saying that there are currently only
two?
John Hutton: Yes, that is true.
I think that the general would like to add more detail.
Lieutenant General Wall: You are
right, Mr Gapes, that at one point we had several hundred people
in our detainee internment facility in Basra. Through a regular
review process, those for whom there was not a strong case for
retaining as detainees were released. The majority were set free
rather than handed over to other authorities. At one point, we
got down to zero. The two people that the Secretary of State has
mentioned were then detained. For our own legal reasons, we are
keen to pursue the prosecution of those two people.[1]
Chairman: That is helpful. It would be
helpful if you could send us a note with more information.
Q27 Mr Jenkin: I have two brief
points. We were told on a visit that it was very circumspect to
have what they called the healing hand of an American serviceman
on the shoulder of the detainee at the point of arrest, because
that meant that we would not have primary responsibility for the
detainee; the Americans would, which was much more convenient
than having the responsibility ourselves. Is one of the reasons
for the numbers going down that the Americans have been making
the arrests and not us?
Lieutenant General Wall: No, the
reason they have gone down is that recent operations in Basra
have been conducted primarily by Iraqi forces. It is they who
have been detaining people, where appropriate.
John Hutton: In fact, the number
of US detainees has been falling, not rising.
Q28 Mr Jenkin: Another aspect
that we learned about on our visits is that we feel legally obliged
to keep our detainees in substantially better conditions than
we house our own armed forces. In particular, we are obliged to
keep detainees in hardened accommodation, whereas many of our
soldiers living in Basra are in unhardened accommodation. How
do you feel about that anomaly, Foreign Secretary?
David Miliband: I would like the
general to set out the full facts first, and I will then tell
you my view. The situation is more complicated than you have just
described.
Lieutenant General Wall: Because
of the requirement to satisfy international standards for the
holding of detainees, you are absolutely right that some of the
accommodation for some of the time has been better than that enjoyed
by some of our soldiers living in ad hoc locations out in the
desert and so on. That is unavoidable.
Mr Jenkin: In the Contingency Operating
Base too.
Lieutenant General Wall: In Basra
air station, that is not the case at the moment. All of our people
are living in hardened accommodation.
David Miliband: You asked me a
direct question. It is important to put it on the record that
that relates to some of our people, some of the time. It is important
that people do not get the impression that there is a policy of
putting our people at greater risk than those we are required
to look after. There is a commitment that our troops, diplomats
and aid workers from the Department for International Development
will have the highest possible standards of security. You referred
to comfort or living standards, but the example you gave related
to their securitythe hardness of their accommodation. In
relation both the security of their accommodation and their living
conditions, we obviously want the highest possible standards for
our own people.
Q29 Sir Menzies Campbell: Would
the information available to you reveal whether any of those who
were detained by British forces ultimately found themselves in
Guantanamo Bay?
Lieutenant General Wall: We have
conducted a study recently and I can confirm that that is not
the case, but we shall include that in the evidence we provide.
Q30 Chairman: Can I ask you about
the prospects for the forthcoming elections in Iraq? How confident
are you, given the great difficulty that there was in agreeing
an election law and the internal divisions within the Iraqi Government
and Parliament, that the timetable and system will stick and that
the elections will be free and fair?
David Miliband: I spoke to our
ambassador in Iraq today and our conversation included this issue.
For the sake of clarity, the provincial elections are scheduled
for January and the national elections for September/October next
year. I think it is very significant that the Sunni groups have
rejoined the national Government. That has set the stage for quite
a bit of the legislative change that has gone through over the
past few months. I think that the political manoeuvring that is
going on around Iraq in advance of the provincial elections is
very encouraging, because political manoeuvring is precisely what
politicians should do, at least some of the time. The preparations
that they are making for the elections in Iraq speak to the commitment
of an increasing range of groups to the electoral process there.
Certainly in Basra, the range of Shi'a groups who are trying to
make sure that they are properly positioned for the elections
in January is significant. The various Sunni factions are also
preparing for the provincial elections. There is a high degree
of confidence that the provincial elections will be a good advertisement
for the improvements in Iraq. The national elections, obviously,
are significantly further ahead, but the improvements in the security
positionand again this may be a parallel that will come
back to you later in the discussionall point towards successful
elections next year.
Q31 Chairman: Can I take this
a step further? The national reconciliation has been pretty sporadic,
has it not? There have been some successes but there are also
clearly some very difficult unresolved issues, including Kirkuk
and attitudes to de-Ba'athification. How confident are you that
the reintegration of the so-called Sons of Iraq, who were mentioned
earlier, or former Ba'athists, will be successful?
David Miliband: There are quite
a lot of issues bundled there. Did you mention the Sons of Iraq?
They are now being paid by the Iraqi Government and there are
significant plans for incorporating a large number of them into
the Iraqi Armythere cannot be a commitment to all of them,
but it will be a significant number; the figure of 10,000 is in
my head from the briefing. That is welcome and significant. In
respect of a range of other groups and the electoral process,
it is important to remember that the previous provincial elections
were boycotted by a significant number of groups, with a turnout
of less than 1% from those communities. I think we have come a
long way from that position over the past five years.
Q32 Chairman: What about de-Ba'athificationthe
new law?
David Miliband: We all know that
the decisions taken in 2003 were some of the most controversial
decisions taken in the immediate aftermath of the war. The fact
that the new laws have gone through is a symptom of the fact that
a spirit of political compromise has been established at national
level. However, as I was saying to Sir John Stanley about constitutional
rights, it is one thing to write them, and another thing to put
them into practice. The fairest thing to say about the de-Ba'athification
law is that it is good that it is law, but now it has got to be
put into practice. It is something where the proof of the pudding
will be in the eating.
Chairman: We will move on to some economics-related
questions.
Q33 Mr Purchase: Before we move to
that topic, let me say that although the Foreign Secretary suggested
in response to questions from Sir John Stanley that we are not
looking at the past, I would say that we have to learn some very
serious lessons from the past about how all the episodes in Iraq
have been conducted militarily and civil society-wise. At the
heart of all of this is the struggle for resources, or economics.
I wonder whether either the Secretary of State for Defence or
the Foreign Secretary want to give their assessment of the battle
for resources, how it is going, and what the prospects are for
some equitable distribution in Iraq and for the Iraqis to control
the process for themselves.
David Miliband: There are significant
prospects, not just in Basra where we have the most effort but
all around the country. In part, that is a function of oil production,
which is now up to 2.5 million barrels a daymore or less
the same as pre-2003 levels. It is a source of massive income
for Iraq. The fact that in Iraq we are talking about the distribution
of tens of billions of dollars shows the scale of the economy
that is in prospect. However, it is not only in oil that Iraq
has a significant economic base: its people are very well educated
and it has a significant economic history. One of the areas where
we have to try to make a contribution is Iraq's trading operations
with its neighbours. It is striking that one of the blockages
to the efforts of the Basra Development Commission, which is keen
to take forward its work, is the blockage on Iraq-Kuwait trade.
Part of the work that we have been doing in the Foreign Office
is with the Iraqis and the Kuwaitis and, significantly, the Turks,
who have significant aspirations for investment in the Basra area,
to try to open up Iraq-Kuwait trade. Some of the early signs of
progress are quite significant. There is a wealth-creating base,
but we need to make sure that it has the capacity for export as
well as domestic consumption.
John Hutton: I would add two things
to that, Ken. The future of Basra international airport will be
very important. The airport will be a key facilitator for some
of the wider economic development that we around this table, in
this room, would want to see in southern Iraq. The work of the
Basra Development Commission and the Basra Investment Promotion
Agency will be very important, and we will be looking to provide
the maximum possible support in those areas. I would like more
British companies to get interested in Iraq and the opportunities
for development there. As the Foreign Secretary said, the potential
is enormous. I think particularly of the Basra area. As our military
mission changes, and it is changing, we have to focus on this
new aspect of our relationship with Iraq, but, as the Defence
Secretary, I would say that the essential precondition for our
now being able to have this conversation about economic development
and opportunitiesthey are hugewas making significant
progress on the security front. Without that progress, it would
be very hard to talk to British companies, for example, about
the opportunities for investment in and around Basra. The recent
agreement that Shell made with the Iraqi Government on gas flow
is a harbinger, I hope, of similar deals, particularly around
the energy sector. We should be and we are resolved to focus on
this in the months and years ahead. We should try to maximise
the opportunities for British companies to do good business in
Iraq, for the mutual benefit of themselves and, not least important,
Iraqi citizens.
Q34 Mr Purchase: I am pleased
to hear you say "good business", because that is the
key to future peaceful development in Iraq. In the meantime, of
course, there are some serious delays in the work on the hydrocarbon
law. It is understood that major companies are awaiting development
of that law before they make investment decisions. I hope that
there will be interesting times for British businesses and that
they will be able to conduct their business fairly, but what assessment
do you make of the lack of progress on the hydrocarbon law?
David Miliband: The hydrocarbon
law has just been referred again to the Council of Representatives,
but before we get too excited about that, we have to remember
that it was first referred to the council about 18 months ago
and has been stuck in limbo since then. I completely share your
frustration about this. The truth is that there is an argument
going on about the division of the spoils, but the spoils are
so large as to make it worth all sides getting on with the division
and with making a living. I think that the lack of trust that
has existed between the different parts of the governing coalition
is a contribution to that. All I can say to you is that we press
very hard at every opportunity for all sides to recognise the
opportunity as well as the responsibility that exists to get a
hydrocarbons law through. It was right that the provincial powers
law had to go through first, but there remains an overwhelming
case for the passage of the hydrocarbons law. Kirkuk was mentioned
earlier and that is a very important part of this. The work of
UN Representative di Mistura is critical to getting the Kirkuk
question settled. It is not for us to settle it; it is for Iraqis
to settle it, but it does require, in the end, a compromise. The
danger at the moment is that the best will be the enemy of the
good for each of the different factions. In fact, even with the
oil price where it is today rather than where it was four months
ago, it is well worth their doing the deal and getting the compromise,
because the resources are very substantial.
Q35 Mr Borrow: Is it the view
of the Government that, given the scale of the resources available
to the Iraqi Government, the role of the UK in terms of its bilateral
relationships is not to build some of the infrastructure or provide
resources to build the infrastructure that is needed, but to expect
the Iraqi Government to use their own resources for that infrastructure,
and that our role is very much one of providing advice and expertise
to assist them in doing that, rather than providing direct aid
to a country that should have the potential to provide aid to
other countries, rather than expecting it from the UK and other
western countries?
David Miliband: Yes, that is the
right perspective. It is not a poverty-stricken country; it is
a middle-income country that is able to generate some resources.
Q36 Mr Keetch: Gentlemen, may
I ask about some of the regional issues that we face, starting
with Iran? Back in April, General Petraeus said that basically
Iran was fighting a "proxy war" against the Iraqi state
and coalition forcesthat it was arming the Jaish al-Mahdi
and other special groups. By August, General Lloyd Austin, the
US No. 2, said that the JAM was "relatively inactive".
Indeed, a congressional report said that it was believed that
the Iranian influence was "fading". Do you share the
view that the Iranian influence on the ground in Iraq is fading?
John Hutton: I shall ask General
Wall to comment on that specifically, but let me offer one or
two observations. We have to watch that space very carefully indeed.
That is partly a security issue, around the border in particular,
and it is about how we can make sure we do not see reinfiltration
of the JAM and the special groups back into Basra and the surrounding
area. Operations have been conducted to try to intercept that.
We have to be very vigilant on that. On the political space, as
I am sure the Foreign Secretary would confirm, we have always
made clear to Iran what we think about its involvement in these
areas. We do not like it, and we have been very specific about
that. It is totally unacceptable for foreign countries to support
armed militias that stand outside the political process and are
dedicated to undermining the political progress that is being
made, and we have been very clear about that. Specifically in
relation to current issues relating to the JAM and special groups,
perhaps General Wall will say something.
Lieutenant General Wall: It is
absolutely right to say that these rogue elements of Jaish al-Mahdi,
special groups or whatever we want to call them now, are much
less in evidence on a day-to-day basis in Basra than they were
a year ago, almost to the point where the main causes of instability
in Basrathose are very limited at the moment; they are
almost absent altogetherhave much more to do with criminal
activity and a little bit of internecine score settling. However,
I do not think that these rogue elements, who were very active
against us, as you will recall, last summer with indirect fire
and over the early part of the winter with improvised explosive
devices and so on, have gone dormant for good. There is a sense
that they may well have regrouped to an extent and may well be
receiving specialist training, probably sponsored by the Iranians,
and that they therefore could re-engage, should they have the
motivation to do so, while we remain operating in and around Basra
alongside Iraqi security forces, so there is still a latent threat
there, I assess.
Q37 Mr Keetch: So although we
could say that there is no threat currently, it certainly has
not gone away. Are we as convinced as we ever were that there
is a direct Iranian link to that potential threat?
Lieutenant General Wall: We would
be very rash to assume that it had gone away for good, and it
is a reasonable assumption that there is Iranian orchestration.
Q38 Mr Keetch: May I quickly ask
about the threat on the sea? We are all familiar with what happened
to the Royal Navy a little while ago in its dealings with some
of the maritime special groups. Has the threat level on the seas
and waterways declined in the same way, or been withdrawn, as
it has perhaps on land?
John Hutton: It has, as far as
I know.
Lieutenant General Wall: We have
to be extremely cautious in that respect, and we have resumed
the patrolling that was going on at the time that the RN15 incident
happened. Our sense is that the risks are not as evident as they
were then, but we should not assume that that sort of capability
could not be recreated, not so much by the Iraqi navy as by the
republican guard.
David Miliband: May I come in
on the political side? All Iraq's neighbours have long-standing
and deep economic, cultural and sometimes family ties with Iraq,
and those are legitimate. What is not legitimate is the support
of armed groups that are trying to undermine the elected Iraqi
Government. What is happening is that Iraq's neighbours are slowly
coming to terms with the growing strength of the Iraqi Government.
We see that in the meetings of Iraq's neighbours. If we compare
last year's meetings with this year's, Iraq is more self-confident,
and its neighbours are having to adapt their positions a little
to Iraq's growing assets and strengths. That is not to say that
Iraq is in a position to define all the relationships that it
has with others, but it is now a more equal relationship than
it was two or three years agoand possibly even a year ago.
In that sense, the growth of Iraqi capacity and the development
of Iraqi wealth and politics is able to make the weather; and
that is a very good thing.
Q39 Richard Younger-Ross: May
I touch on the potential for internal conflict? The Foreign Secretary
mentioned the oil wealth in Kirkuk. The Kurds will always argue
that they were in Kirkuk and were pushed out by Saddam. The Iraqi
Government will argue that it is a mixed area at the moment. The
Kurds have put their forces into Kirkuk, and the Iraqi army had
to move in to persuade the Kurds to withdraw. What threat is there
of internal conflict in that case; and, if so, what is being done
to avert it?
David Miliband: Do you mean armed
conflict?
Richard Younger-Ross: Yes.
David Miliband: I think that the
different parts of Iraq and the different communities there know
better than anyone the costs of conflict, so there are big incentives
to avoid it. However, it remains the case that in various ways,
Iraq is a deeply violent society, and it would be wrong to pretend
that it is the sort of terrain that any of us would recognise
from home. However, I believe that the forces of division are
significantly more contained than they were a year or two ago,
that the commitment of the political representatives of the various
communities is greater than it was a year or two ago, and that
the benefits of maintaining the territorial integrity of Iraq
are significantand, equally important, more visibly significant
to the different communities. At this stage, I do not see any
community seeing its future as opting out of the Iraq state.
John Hutton: There is an obvious
security situation as well. It was crystallised recently with
the attacks on the Christian community. The Iraqi Government responded
very strongly in an Iraqi-led security operation backed up by
US forces. There are other issues. You mentioned Kirkuk, but I
would put Mosul on to the table as well. Ongoing concerns there
are being addressed. Mosul is part of Iraq where there is a continuing
al-Qaeda presence. We have to be conscious of all those things.
1 Note by witness: Details of the number of
individuals held in the UK Divisional Internment Facility have
been published monthly on the MOD website since January 2007.
There are currently two individuals in that facility. The facility
has never, in fact, been empty since it was opened. The two detainees
currently in the UK facility in Iraq have been in UK custody since
December 2003. Back
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