Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-332)
MR CHRIS
BAKER OBE, REAR
ADMIRAL CHARLES
MONTGOMERY CBE, MAJOR
GENERAL ANDREW
GREGORY, AIR
VICE MARSHAL
SIMON BRYANT
CBE, MAJOR GENERAL
SIMON LALOR
TD AND VICE
ADMIRAL PETER
WILKINSON CVO
22 APRIL 2008
Q320 John Smith: Can you tell me
what the overall recruitment figure for the Armed Forces is for
recruits from the British community who come from ethnic minority
backgrounds?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: As you
are aware, our figures include foreign and Commonwealth recruits
and currently they are nearly at 6%.
Q321 John Smith: That is not the
question. Can you tell me whether you know either across the Armed
Forces or at single Service level what proportion of the British
community recruited into the Armed Forces comes from ethnic minority
backgrounds?
Mr Baker: I can tell you that
at 31 December 2007 the achievement was 2% of recruits for the
Navy, 3.4% for the Army and 1.7% for the RAF.
Q322 Mr Hancock: What is the overall
figure?
Mr Baker: I do not have that figure,
but we can calculate that for you.
Q323 John Smith: The figure is 2%.
According to the National Audit Office, 60% of all ethnic minority
recruits into the Armed Forces come from foreign or Commonwealth
countries. They are not British, which means that our British
recruitment levels for ethnic minorities are 2%. I cannot speak
for my colleagues on the Committee, but I consider that to be
an absolute scandal. I also believe that the way the figures have
been fiddled over the past eight years has been completely and
utterly unacceptable. I do not point a finger at the witnesses
in relation to the way the MoD collects the figures, but I think
you should be aware, if you are not already, that the Ministry
claims an increase from 1% ethnic minority recruitment in 1999
to the latest figure we have before us of 5.9%, but that simply
is not true. The 1% in 1999 was quite rightly the British recruits
who came from ethnic minorities and did not include foreign and
Commonwealth recruits. The figures that you are using today are
erroneous and give a completely misleading picture of the current
situation within the Armed Forces. Does the panel agree with me
that if recruitment in the UK was colour blind and we recruited,
as does our principal ally the United States of America, the same
proportion of British citizens in the community irrespective of
colour into the Armed Forces, and therefore the Armed Forces reflected
the wider community within this country, we would be able to draw
on an additional 18,000 recruits and much of the discussion about
recruitment, retention and shortages of manning would not apply?
I appreciate that that is a slightly loaded question.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: The Armed
Forces have an aspiration to reflect the society they represent
and all three Services have found it an incredibly difficult challenge
to recruit from the ethnic minority community. That does not mean
they are not working hard so to do. I will ask the individual
Services to give you some indication of the efforts they are putting
into this particular work. We know we have to do better in this
field and we are desperately trying to do so. Perhaps we can turn
first to the Navy to see what specifically they are doing to tackle
the issue.
Rear Admiral Montgomery: I hope
the Committee does not feel that I am offering excuses when I
say this, but the first point I make is that we have been trying
very hard to make inroads into ethnic minority recruiting. Second,
our heartlands in the Royal Navy are on the south coast and in
Faslane. That is distant from the main heartlands of the ethnic
minorities in the country. It is just a simple fact that there
is a geographical dislocation, so the Royal Navy is not as much
to the forefront of minds of those from ethnic minorities as it
might be the case if they or we were a bit closer together. The
third point I make—I do not say it by way of excuse, nor
do I seek to make a wider political point—is that, whereas
in other instances the Iraq and Afghanistan factors have caused
difficulties in terms of Armed Forces recruitment, we have had
no feedback whatsoever from the people we recruit that those two
factors are at play other than within the ethnic minority communities.
Therefore, those are three factors that I just register as context
before I go onto the wider points. For some time we have had diverse
reaction and dedicated teams which we deploy away from the naval
heartlands into the heartlands of the ethnic minority communities.
You will have seen from the paper we put together some of the
challenges they face in those communities in terms of approaching
gate-keepers and getting success with them. They have achieved
some success but not enough. We have restructured that now. One
of the disadvantages of that process was that it was necessarily
a short-term visit by a team deployed from within the recruiting
organisation's overall resource. We have now structured our field
force so that every one of our recruiting teams on the ground
has the responsibility to engage with ethnic minorities and, therefore,
personal contacts become stronger. On the specific objectives,
we have established a programme of gate-keepers' courses which
are run every three months and are attended by gate-keepers of
the ethnic minority community, and down on the ground we have
been particularly active in both Coventry and Leeds on a regional
basis in drawing together on the back of football and other activities
the ethnic minority recruiting. My sense from the recruiting field
force is that it feels it is making progress but it is extraordinarily
hard work.
Air Vice Marshal Bryant: It is
much the same story. We have had some relative success this year
in terms of a significant increase in the percentages but the
numbers are still tiny and they are not where we want to be. A
huge amount of effort goes into this which reflected on the budgetary
side. It is not disproportionate because we believe that for this
disproportionately small recruitment we need that catchment area.
There is also a significantly high level of engagement. There
are some award-winning projects out there with Race for Equality
and the Linton model, all of which are deemed to be at the very
top end of good practice. The four motivational outreach teams
are being relocated at the moment. Again, that follows a principle
we use elsewhere to reinforce success where we have had better
results in areas that are rich in ethnic minorities. Driving forward
on the question of how you recruit most cost-effectively, research
has shown that digital media and going to niche areas, primarily
local radio stations, are likely to reveal the best results, but
it is too early to say that we shall be able massively to reinforce
the success. Certainly, the targets we are chasing are seen as
very challenging.
Q324 John Smith: You are not achieving
the targets?
Air Vice Marshal Bryant: No, we
are not.
Q325 John Smith: The Royal Air Force
is doing particularly badly?
Air Vice Marshal Bryant: We have
given significant thought to that. I am an apologist on its behalf,
but within that analysis the issues come down to this: there appears
to be an aspirational difference within the groups we are trying
to recruit. At the top end the people who are looking for a profession
do not deem the Armed Forces to be the profession to chase; they
would rather head towards some solicitors, go into accountancy
or do something else. That accounts for the people in the high
technical trades—those educational aspirations—that
we are chasing and it is difficult to bridge that gap.
John Smith: But why is there a problem
of recruitment into the UK's Armed Forces but not in the United
States of America, which is our closest ally, at varying professional
levels? Not only do they recruit at the level represented within
the community at large in the United States of America; they recruit
half as many again. Therefore, 12% of the population of the United
States of America is African American or Asian but 18% are recruited
across the board in the Armed Forces. I believe this is an issue
we must address for the sake of the Armed Forces. In this country
just under 10% of the community at large is of Afro-Caribbean
and Asian origin and currently we recruit—because the figures
are fiddled with Commonwealth recruits, whom we welcome—only
2%. Chairman, I will finish my question. I have waited a long
time for this issue to be raised this morning. The target for
2013 of 8% is an admirable one because it will broadly reflect
the community.
Chairman: Can you ask a question?
Q326 John Smith: If the Armed Forces
are not visible as representative of the community at large in
this country the problem of recruiting and retaining will continue
and get worse. I think this is a very serious issue for you to
address.
Major General Gregory: It is a
huge issue. We would greatly like to increase our UK ethnic minority
representation in the Army. There is a challenge in that in the
ethnic minority community in this country there is a significantly
lower level of interest in a military career than there is in
other parts of society. We have to work to overcome that in the
first place. Why is that in existence? The perception is that
more able members would rather go and do something else and do
not see the Armed Forces as a career of choice. Therefore, a lot
of effort is being made to address that. Further, previous perceptions
of the Armed Forces in terms of racial harassment and bullying,
which I think we have now moved beyond, are still present. The
other challenge we face is that there are very few role models
in the ethnic minority community at the higher level of the Armed
Forces and that is a vicious circle we are trying to break. Your
point is a very fair one. What are we doing about it? First, we
set in place the Diversity Threads programme in 1998-99 sponsored
by some consultants who came in to look at all the angles of our
ethnic minority recruiting. We got rid of the consultants in 2006
because the perception then was that this was something being
done for us rather than by us because we must own this problem.
It is absolutely fundamental. There is a whole series of actions.
The Army Board is looking at this again tomorrow because it is
a fundamental issue. For example, we are increasing the level
of ethnic minority representation within the Army recruiting teams.
There is a further challenge in that a number of our UK ethnic
minority soldiers do not want to be stuck on a pedestal or to
be used as role models; they want to get on and run their own
careers. Therefore, the last thing they want is to be used as
public figures; they want to be treated just like everybody else
and given the same opportunities. We are trying to overcome a
whole host of challenges, but your point that we are not utilising
a section of society that would bring unique skills which we would
greatly value is right.
Q327 Mr Jones: Is not the difference
between the UK and the US that in the latter case people join
the Armed Forces for access to lifetime healthcare benefits and
education rather than necessarily other reasons?
Major General Gregory: It is a
very different package.
Q328 Mr Jones: In terms of the problem
that you clearly know exists, to be quite controversial does not
the problem lie with some communities themselves and not with
you? For example, certain sections of the Muslim community would
never consider allowing daughters to go into the Armed Forces
and to try to get over that is not necessarily a problem for you
but goes wider than the Armed Forces? It is a matter of changing
the perceptions of those communities about what joining the Armed
Forces means?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: You are
quite right. Major General Gregory correctly mentioned that we
see this as a command and leadership issue, but it is also about
changing understanding and cultures both within those societies
and our own. Perhaps it is worthwhile turning to Mr Baker to give
a flavour of what we are doing in the centre to try to address
the very issues you mention.
Mr Baker: We know that we have
to do better. We had a very constructive relationship with the
old Commission for Racial Equality which quite rightly held our
feet to the fire on these issues and set us the targets that regrettably
have not been met. We want to continue that relationship with
the new Equality and Human Rights Commission and look forward
to drawing on the wisdom and experience it will have to help us
move forward. Indeed, we engage with other sources of advice and
expertise which include community leaders. The Chief of Defence
Staff had two meetings in the past year with Muslim community
leaders to break down the perceptions and barriers that I am sure
may exist in the minds of some elements of the ethnic communities.
We need to reinforce our message through outreach and continue
to be clear that the perception of harassment and bullying based
on any pretext, but especially race in this context, is not an
accurate perception we believe in the modern Armed Forces. We
believe that we have the policies in place to ensure that that
is the case and we can collect the relevant data as required under
our statutory obligations to ensure we can monitor that robustly
and identify any problems if perchance they did arise. Therefore,
it is a broad approach.
Chairman: We shall end at one o'clock
and so it looks as if we will finish on this question. You have
caused far too much controversy and interest and as a result we
shall be writing to ask a lot of questions to help with our inquiry.
Q329 Mr Hamilton: My question is
very specific and is related more to the Army than the other two
Services. The Army is based in the regions. The Scottish Regiment
is based in Scotland and draws recruits mainly from Scotland.
Do you have different target figures for each of the areas? I
think that an 8% target for Scotland is unrealistic. For example,
in my constituency the white population is 92.9%. The only areas
where there is a substantial ethnic grouping are places like Glasgow,
Edinburgh and Dundee. Outwith that, I would suggest that in the
whole of Scotland very rarely will you find ethnic minorities.
Therefore, if you have an across-the-board figure it is unrealistic
to get to certain areas within the UK. Does that mean that in
the Midlands, for example, you would have a far higher figure
than in Scotland? How does that affect the Armed Forces? It is
very easy to sit here and say that you need to recruit 8% across
the board, but there is a disproportionate effect across the board
and there would be very few from ethnic minorities in the Scottish
Regiment other than those who come from the Commonwealth. Am I
right in thinking that?
Major General Gregory: You are
right in thinking that. And the answer is that we can target our
resources differently depending on the racial construct of society
in any area.
Mr Hamilton: It is important to understand
that.
Mr Hancock: I was disappointed that none
of you said in answer to John Smith's questions, which I thought
were slightly offensive, namely that there was a black and white
issue and it was easier to get into the Armed Forces if you were
white than if you were black. I think that ought to be refuted
because it suggests there is a racial element in Armed Forces
recruitment. To my knowledge, that is not the case and I was disappointed
that none of you rebutted that immediately. What has been said
about the American Armed Forces is not true. There are very few
Muslims in the US Armed Forces; proportionately they have fewer.
The US Armed Forces have African Americans but they have a lot
fewer Muslims. In this country the predominance is people with
Islamic faith. The question I pose to you is that you really do
not know the community if you do not know why these boys and girls
are not joining. You will not know the community by talking to
Muslim leaders; they do not talk to young people in the community
who do not listen to them. You cannot force people. The one thing
I have always found strange is the argument that by some magic
to get people to want to join the Armed Forces. If their parents
do not want them to join the Armed Forces they will not join.
I represent a sizeable proportion of Muslims in Portsmouth. When
you talk to parents the last place they would like their children
to go into is the military.
Chairman: Perhaps I may stop you there.
Can we have one answer?
Q330 Mr Hancock: That is true, is
it not?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: The point
Mr Hancock makes is very relevant. We do not try just to reach
these potential recruits through community leaders or parents.
We try all sorts of methods and approaches through schools and
youth groups. Our city of Portsmouth is a good example where people
work very closely and hard with societies, clubs and groups to
make inroads and see what it is that makes these young people
tick, change their perceptions and show them what an exciting,
varied and worthwhile career the Armed Forces can offer. We are
trying our hardest.
Q331 Mr Borrow: We have been discussing
diversity. I just want to raise with you the fact that two or
three years ago the Armed Forces discriminated on the basis of
sexual orientation. Thankfully, that has now changed. If you can
produce statistics they should show that the number of people
being thrown out of the Armed Forces as a result of discrimination
or sexual orientation has dropped.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: It is
zero; there is no discrimination.
Q332 Mr Borrow: I would be interested
to see the figures before the rules changed. Obviously, in terms
of recruitment and retention if you are not throwing people out
because you are not discriminating against them you are not losing
the personnel that you were losing 10 or 20 years ago on the basis
of prejudice and discriminatory rules in place then. I would also
be interested to see what the Armed Forces are doing both in terms
of recruitment and within the Services to make it easier for gay
men and lesbians to serve within the Armed Forces. It is now a
few years since I had a lot of dealings with various groups that
sought to change the law. Obviously, things seem to have gone
quiet, but as we look at these issues I think it would be helpful
to the Committee if you could put something in writing to update
us on how things are going in the three Services.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: For us
that is an issue with which we are no longer concerned. We believe
that it is very much one of yesterday's issues, but we shall certainly
submit the note for which Mr Borrow asks. Since the beginning
of the year we had in place an independent service complaints
commissioner. We are well aware that complaints about wellbeing
and conditions of service are very much a function of the chain
of command, but here is an additional method whereby a serviceman
or woman can complain about any matters related to his or her
service to an independent commissioner. I think that is part of
the note we can put together.
Chairman: That would be helpful. I am
afraid that we will have lots of questions to ask you. Thank you
for answering the many questions that we have already asked this
morning. It has been very interesting and has kept us going on
for far too long.
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