Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND VICE
ADMIRAL PETER
WILKINSON CVO
20 MAY 2008
Q340 Mr Jones: On a serious point
though, you can waste a lot of money and marketeers will actually
come up with daft ideas like that.
Derek Twigg: Obviously I understand
the point you are making, but in terms of the whole issue of recruitment,
there is a degree of innovation that you might disagree with,
but in terms of the innovation that we need and the ideas in terms
of getting to the new generation that we are recruiting today,
there is lots of thinking that needs to take place about how we
best reach people and get to people and encourage them to join.
There may be disagreements in terms of how we approach that, but
the key thing is there is no one, single approach which I think
would solve all the problems. We have to examine a lot of areas.
As I say, I understand the point you are making, but I think we
should not get side-tracked from all the good work that has been
put in place, the innovations taking place on recruitment and
the PR angle of that.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: I think
all three recruiting arms for the services actually use quite
sophisticated marketing techniques, acknowledging that some of
them may not produce the best effect. One of the recent Royal
Marine's campaigns, which suggested that 99.99% need not apply,
actually was one of the most successful because, for the type
of person that the Royal Marines were trying to recruit, this
appealed to their machismo, to their ego and to their sense of
wanting to prove they could do it. So counter-intuitive it might
have been, but actually it worked.
Q341 Chairman: Minister, this is
a question really for you. You are responsible for recruitment,
basic training, pay, things like that. Bob Ainsworth is responsible
for readiness, personnel issues, training, reputation, things
like that. How do you co-ordinate your approach between the two
ministers? Do you find there is overlap or confusion?
Derek Twigg: First of all, the
changes are relatively new in terms of responsibilities, they
were a few months ago, but actually we meet on a fairly regular
basis, usually on a weekly basis, to go through lots of issues,
of which these are one. So there is quite at lot of contact between
the two of us and we work closely together. I think, specifically
since we made the changes in terms of responsibility, that was
the intention the Secretary of State wanted, for the two ministers
to work closely together on these range of issues, and that includes
accommodation as well. It is not just the areas you have mentioned;
there is a range of areas where we are working together. I think,
to be frank, it has been working very well. It is early days yet,
but we do have a lot of co-ordination.
Q342 Mr Crausby: The Spring Performance
Report tells us that we will not meet target three. In effect,
the MoD are saying that we will not be entirely ready to respond
to the tasks that might arise. I know there has been a lot of
talk about pinch points, but what are we doing about that? The
Royal Navy, for Lieutenant Harrier pilots short-fall 51%, but
instructors short-fall 57% at the same time that the RAF have
a surplus of some pilots. What, effectively, are we urgently doing
to ensure that we deal with these short-falls?
Derek Twigg: First of all, we
are making sure that in terms of the leadership and organisation
in services and across services, as you know, in terms of rotary
wing pilots, in terms of medical care, where we have very much
a tri-service approach, we are working together to deal with any
particular difficulties around any particular service in terms
of meeting the overall obligations and our objectives. I think
there is a lot closer co-operation in recent years than has been
previously, and I think the tri-service approach, the working
between the three services, is very much improved. I also think
that the various initiatives we are taking in terms of the financial
retention initiatives, for which it is early days yet in terms
of quite a few of them, are having a beneficial effect, and we
have provided you with some figures on that, but, of course, as
I say, it is pretty early on at the moment. Also issues around
accommodation, where we are making improvements, the healthcare,
which I think this committee recognises is world-class, the welfare
improvement, support around decompression issues and mental health—there
is a whole range of things. Improved equipment in regard to operations
like UD, and people tell me it is the best equipment that they
have had. It is not just one particular thing we are using to
deal with this; it is a whole range of measures.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: Sir, at
the operational level units the such as Joint Force Harrier and
the Joint Helicopter Command are testament to the fact that the
Services have realised that they can make the sum greater than
the parts. Those two units, have been heavily involved in operations
in Afghanistan recently using personnel from all three services
to best effect.
Q343 Mr Crausby: Even Objective I
in the report—to achieve success in the military tasks that
we undertake both at home and abroad—is on course with some
risk. There will be some risk, will there not, if we continue
not to generate enough forces as quickly as we are losing people?
At what point do we panic on all of this and have to completely
review our overall strategy?
Derek Twigg: You will know as
well from your visits and the other investigations you have done,
actually we are achieving a massive amount, not just in Iraq and
Afghanistan but elsewhere, and obviously much of that has got
to be down to the amazing professionalism and encouraging sacrifice
of our people: their leadership skill that is taking place, the
organisation, the new ways of working—I talked before about
Joint Harrier and Joint Rotary Wing—all these things that
are happening. If we sat here and said we had not got any answers,
then I could understand we could get to the point where you are
suggesting we could get to where there is panic and we cannot
do this actually. We do not believe that is the case. We believe
the improvements we are making across the piece will provide us
with sufficient people to deliver what our aims and objectives
are, but we are not complacent about it. It is difficult, it is
challenging, we are asking our people to do an awful lot, but
we are not at the stage where we think we will be in a panic mode
in six or 12 months' time or anything like that.
Q344 Mr Jenkin: Minister, this performance
report is pretty devastating. It shows that nearly half the force
elements are reporting critical or serious weaknesses against
their peace-time readiness levels and their ability to generate
from peace-time readiness to immediate readiness or deployment
in operations. Is this not what the Ministry of Defence is meant
to do, to have military forces ready to deploy? Nearly half of
those forces are incapable of doing that. Is that not pretty devastating?
Derek Twigg: If that is the way
you read it, but actually what we are saying very clearly is that
we are meeting our requirements, we are meeting our objectives.
Q345 Mr Jenkin: But you are not.
Derek Twigg: Let us be clear,
in Iraq and Afghanistan we clearly are. We have just deployed
some people to Kosovo. We are managing the situation in which
ministers have said clearly we are asking a lot of our Armed Force
personnel to deliver the objectives and commitments that we said
we would deliver. Of course there are stresses and areas where
we have got to improve and find additional resources and improve
equipment, which we have been doing continually in terms of uplifts
and helicopters, in terms of armoured vehicles, so an awful lot
is happening. In terms of people, the reason you are having this
investigation, obviously, is to look into what we are not doing,
and what we are not doing is a lot of initiatives, not just in
terms of financial retention initiatives, in terms of recruitment
but also across the piece in terms of welfare, medical care, accommodation.
We recognise it is an holistic approach to this, and I do not
accept your suggestion that we are in a situation where we are
about to fail or cannot meet our obligations.
Q346 Mr Jenkin: The real problem
is for a long time, as the report says, you have been operating
above your defence planning assumptions, and this is set to go
on. In the National Security Strategy we were told we were going
to be entering on period of reduced commitments. Since then we
have cancelled the drawdown from Iraq, we have deployed an extra
battalion to Afghanistan, we are deploying a battalion to Kosovo
and goodness knows what else is going to arise. Is not the problem
that the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury have consistently
underestimated the demands on the Armed Forces, and the recruitment
problem you are having both fails to feed the Armed Forces with
the personnel they need at the rate they need them but, also,
the pace of operations is deterring people from staying on and
adding to the difficulty?
Derek Twigg: I think the difficulty
I have with your argument is that you can try and predict the
pace of operations absolutely accurately and that nothing will
change and there will be no issues that arise; it just does not
stand up, in my view. There will be always be situations where
we have got to react.
Q347 Mr Jenkin: So the National Security
Strategy is wrong?
Derek Twigg: No. Let me just finish.
We will always be in a position like that. What we have is an
amazingly competent and, I think, the best Armed Forces in the
world, who have been able to react to these changing situations,
albeit we are asking an awful lot of them. We have got the leadership
in place, we have got the programmes in place to improve things
like equipment and the whole range of facilities which I mentioned
to you previously. It is not that we are sitting here as ministers
saying, "Just get on with it"; we have got a range of
initiatives we are taking to try and move this forward. In terms
of coming back to your point about recruitment and retention,
which is the specific reason for this inquiry here today, as I
have set out briefly, there is a whole range of initiatives we
are taking.
Q348 Mr Holloway: Minister, you said
to Mr Jenkin there he is assuming you can predict how things are
going to work, but in a few weeks' time the TA Unit is going to
deploy, who are going to work outside the bases, they are going
with snatch vehicles, they are going with only one or two people
having night-vision equipment, they have no aerial weapons, they
have no money at all for quips. The MoD has known that this particular
unit will be going for well over a year. What do you say to the
guy in that unit who says to me, "Because we have not got
the right equipment, we are going to come back with less arms
and legs attached"?
Derek Twigg: Mr Holloway, I think
even you would recognise that we have made great strides in the
last year or two in terms of improving equipment for our people,
whether it is for our regulars or reservists. I was only talking
to quite a number of reservists last week and they were saying
to me how they had seen the improvement in equipment and support
that they had had as well. Out in theatre, as you will know again
from your background and visits, there are significant improvements.
We are not sending people out there under-equipped and not with
the facilities that they need.
Q349 Mr Holloway: Minister, I totally
accept that, but the fact remains, it is pretty extraordinary
that a unit that you guys have known is going to be going there
for well over a year is having to fill in a form to try and borrow
GPMGs from TA units. It is staggering. If troop commanders are
making emergency requisitions, there is something wrong, is there
not?
Derek Twigg: The key thing is
we are not sending our people into theatre without the right equipment.
Q350 Mr Holloway: You are.
Derek Twigg: We are not.
Q351 Mr Holloway: They think you
are, and that is what matters in terms of this inquiry.
Derek Twigg: We are making sure
our people are fully equipped, and that is the message I get all
the time when I have been in theatre myself or when I talk to
the brigades when they come back into this country after a tour.
They all say to me it is the best equipment that they have ever
had. I was only in Basra five or six weeks ago.
Q352 Mr Holloway: But that is a completely
different point; whether the equipment they have got is the best
equipment they have ever had or whether or not the equipment they
have at the moment is actually what they need to do the job.
Derek Twigg: That is exactly what
they say as well. The equipment they have got is what they need
to do the job. As I say, I was in Basra five or six weeks ago
and that was the clear message I got from our people out there,
both the Army and the RAF.
Q353 Chairman: I think, Minister,
that is the message that we have had. When we have been to Iraq
and when we have been to Afghanistan, they say they have never
had such good personal equipment, but I think we should acknowledge
that. Am I right in thinking that you said that we were meeting
our objectives?
Derek Twigg: Yes, we are meeting
our objectives in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Q354 Chairman: One of the objectives
is to be ready to respond to the tasks that might arise. We are
not meeting that target, are we?
Derek Twigg: In the context that
we are asking our people to do what has been set for them so far,
they are achieving that. Obviously there is a limit to what we
can do in terms of the people and resources we have available.
In terms of what we are asking our people to do in Iraq and Afghanistan,
we are meeting that. In terms of additional tasks over and over
that, there is obviously a limit to what we can do.
Q355 Chairman: We are not ready to
respond to the tasks that might arise, are we?
Derek Twigg: It depends what those
tasks may be. We are obviously at a stage where our people are
doing an awful lot. They do not have a lot of additional resources
to respond to a greater degree.
Q356 Chairman: No. Minister, in the
last few days, the Secretary of State has issued a paper saying
that we are not ready to respond to the tasks that might arise?
Derek Twigg: The point I am trying
to make is that what we are asking our people currently to do,
they can. That is the point I am making.
Q357 Mr Crausby: The point that we
are trying to make is that the report says we will not generate
forces which can be deployed, sustained and recovered at the scales
of effort required to meet the Government's strategic objective.
It is a pretty clear statement, and the MoD said that that target
will not be met.
Derek Twigg: What I am trying
to say is that what we currently ask our people to do, we are
meeting.
Q358 Mr Crausby: I think we all accept
that.
Derek Twigg: In terms of what
they may be asked in the future, I cannot predict what that will
be.
Q359 Mr Crausby: We all accept, I
think, that Objective I the MoD argue is on course with some risk,
but as far as Objective II is concerned, the MoD clearly say,
"We will not meet our objective." What we are urgently
asking is what urgent action are we going to take?
Derek Twigg: I was trying to explain,
in terms of the wholesale initiatives we are taking in terms of
recruitment, in terms of the retention initiatives, the equipment
improvement, all that is taking place, and, as I say, it will
have, and is having, an impact. Some of it is pretty early in
terms of initiatives and what the final impact of that will be,
and, of course, we have learned lessons from the initiatives we
have taken and we are going to continue to do that.
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