Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420-434)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND VICE
ADMIRAL PETER
WILKINSON CVO
20 MAY 2008
Q420 Mr Jenkin: What about the reliance
on ethnic minorities from outside the UK? Are we over-reliant
on that?
Derek Twigg: I do not accept that
we are over-reliant. There is a long-standing history in terms
of Commonwealth citizens being members of the Armed Forces. Clearly,
they form a very important part of our need and do an amazing
job but I would not say we are over-reliant on them. I do not
accept that point.
Q421 Mr Jenkin: Some people feel
that you are almost fiddling your figures by recruiting from overseas.
You are not really recruiting ethnic minorities from within the
UK and therefore not really reflecting society.
Derek Twigg: There is a narrow
point of difference here but in terms of active recruiting that
is not what we do. We were asked to go and recruit; we will do
so, and clearly many people of their own volition apply to join
the British Armed Forces, so it is not that we are going out there
with a strategy to recruit to replace the shortfall we have in
the Armed Forces, that is not the case, but we do obviously welcome
recruits from other countries and they are doing an amazing job
for us.
Q422 Mr Jenkin: And the Equality
and Human Rights Commission has complained about the quality of
data that are collected within the Armed Forces about ethnic minorities.
Can you say something about that? Are you addressing that? Are
they going to be pleased with your next set of data?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: I would
certainly hope so. We worked very well with their predecessors,
the EOC. We are trying to establish a similar relationship with
the EHRC. We are well aware that the veracity of the data is important,
both for them and for us. We are using their skills to help us
improve wherever we can, so we are looking forward to quite a
positive relationship with the EHRC.
Q423 Mr Jenkin: How effective do
you think it has been to recruit civilian chaplains from ethnic
minority communities?
Derek Twigg: It is early days.
I think it is a good innovation. Having met a number of them,
I think it is something that will help our overall aim to recruit
from ethnic minorities. It is too early to say at the moment how
beneficial that has been but I think it is the right thing to
do, to be quite frank, and they are very committed individuals.
Q424 Mr Jones: When I was at HMS
Raleigh yesterday I have to say that, in terms of the Commonwealth
recruits I saw there, the Commanding Officer was saying they are
very good, they are of a high quality and very dedicated, so I
think they add to the Service, but just looking in terms of the
actual numbers in the Armed Forces, apparently 305 Muslims are
in the Armed Forces according to the figures we have here. Is
it possible, not today, to supply how many of them are from the
UK rather than abroad, because I have come to the conclusion that
this is a problem of communities rather than the Armed Forces
themselves in terms of attitudes, etc. If you could break that
down that would be helpful, and women as well.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: Yes.
Q425 Mr Borrow: One Army Recruiting
into the TA—how effective has that been? Has it made things
better or worse?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: One Army
Recruiting, as you know, is only a year old and certainly when
my colleague, General Gregory, was here when we gave evidence
before he said that it is very difficult to tell thus far. It
is too early to make judgments, but, instinctively, by offering
a range of options to anyone who declares an interest in joining
the Army, we think that that will be an improvement on past distinct
and separate recruiting for the regular Army versus the Territorials.
Derek Twigg: Some of the Reservists
in the TA I have spoken to in recent months think it is a good
thing. I could not tell you whether that has brought about the
increase that we would all like to see but people serving think
it is a good thing, so I think that is beneficial.
Q426 Mr Borrow: To what extent is
there an interest in this as a concept from the Naval Marines
and the RAF?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: They are
watching closely.
Q427 Mr Borrow: So they are in a
look-and-see mode at the moment in terms of whether to implement
something similar?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: Indeed.
Q428 Mr Borrow: Can we move on to
a bigger issue, and it is certainly something that we hear anecdotally
quite regularly, which is the difficulties of Reserve Forces continuing
in the Reserves when they are deployed quite regularly in that
they are coming under pressure from their employers? Of course,
in the UK there is no statutory right in this area. I just wondered
to what extent you are reviewing whether or not we should, if
you like, give a bit more strength to those people who are in
the Reserve Forces and are facing pressure from their employers
to leave the Reserves because of the deployments they are taking?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: There
is, of course, some legislation that protects both the employer
and the employee, but, given the current operational tempo, of
which we have spoken already this morning, the fact that Reservists
are having to deploy more frequently than perhaps was the case
in recent times has brought to a head some of the issues that
we are now trying to address to make sure that people who join
the Reserves have a fulfilling career within them and that we
are fair both to them and to the employers, who we gratefully
acknowledge release them in most cases very willingly.
Derek Twigg: On the very positive
side, SaBRE, which does an amazing job, the organisation with
employers, is very supportive and there is a great deal of support
out there from employers. While there are, obviously, issues there,
I think the vast majority are very supportive and organised in
a way that supports us, given the challenges we have in terms
of our current operations. Also, for instance, in terms of medical
Reservists, we are working very closely with the NHS to see how
we can encourage even more to join the Reservists or at least
spend some of their time in an operational theatre, so there is
a lot of work taking place with the NHS on that.
Q429 Mr Borrow: Is there a recognition
that there has been a change over the last 30, 40 years in employment
patterns? If you go back 30 or 40 years, a large number of the
Reserve Forces population worked for very large employers and
therefore it was easier, whether it was jury service or magistrates
or whatever it was, for people to be out of the workplace doing
things that are public duties. It is much more difficult now,
given the changes to much smaller workplaces.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: There
is no doubt that it is more difficult for a small business to
manage a Reservist's frequent deployment as compared to the period
of large commercial organisations a few years ago.
Q430 Linda Gilroy: As far as young
people are concerned and their changing expectations and careers,
are you matching these with flexible entry points and training
routes? I am sure you will be aware of the NAO reports and the
demographic issues, changing expectations, not having a career
for life in the same way that people expected, and Professor Strachan
has told the Committee that we ought to be looking much more at
the universities as a potential source of recruitment and a positive
thing rather than, in his impression, that it is not viewed in
that way.
Chairman: Minister, you nod.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: Again,
sir, we covered much of this in our last evidence session, but
I do not detect any movement against recruiting from the universities.
In fact, we need to explore all avenues that are open to us. There
are opportunities here. We realise that people no longer perhaps
want a career for life as they did in the past. If we can be more
flexible about the way we employ them that would be to our advantage
and we have people looking at the possibilities here in terms
of taking career breaks or part-time or flexible working so that
we reflect the lifestyles of the people who now join the Services.
We realise it is to our advantage to do that.
Q431 Linda Gilroy: But does a re-engineering
of the role of the Reserves have a role to play in that?
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: Indeed,
and you are well aware that there is a review of Reserves being
undertaken at the moment, and I would have thought that that is
one of the areas that they are going to be looking at, to be more
flexible in the future.
Derek Twigg: To sum up, basically,
we have to be smarter and more flexible in terms of recruitment
and retention, and that is a yes.
Q432 Chairman: Minister, yesterday
I visited Basingbourne, which was a very helpful visit from the
Defence Committee's point of view. I wonder if you could help
to clear up some confusion that I now have in my mind about the
number of people who discharge as of right? Yesterday I heard
that we lose something like 23% of new recruits in training and
that it is much the same as our loss at the same level in the
United States, but I have also heard different figures, that the
United States only lose 10% in training and that we lose 37%.
I wonder if you could write to us setting out precisely what numbers
we do lose discharging as of right and how it compares with our
major allies and, if we are doing worse, why you think we might
be doing worse and how we can learn from other countries how to
do it better? If you could break that down by Service that would
be helpful.
Derek Twigg: Yes, we will do that.
Q433 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed. One final suggestion. I met yesterday some young boys.
They were all at that stage boys going through the junior entry.
They were 16, 17, and they were very impressive after ten weeks
of service. I wondered whether there might be some mileage to
be gained in asking them at the end of the early part of their
training to go back to the schools that they had left, possibly
not having done very well in their schools, completely transformed
into confident and contributing young men and women and showing
their teachers, who are sometimes the gatekeepers, quite how Forces
training can transform a personality.
Derek Twigg: It would probably
be best after phase two rather than phase one.
Q434 Chairman: It could well be.
Derek Twigg: I think it is an
excellent idea and it is something we will explore.
Vice Admiral Wilkinson: It is
certainly a thread, sir, that Quentin Davies' report brought out
yesterday as one of his recommendations.
Derek Twigg: The answer is yes,
we will explore that.
Chairman: Excellent, thank you. It is
12.30; you have to go. Thanks very much indeed for this final
session. It has been very helpful.
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