Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
140-157)
CLLR PAUL
BETTISON, MR
MARTIN WHEATLEY,
MR GIDEON
AMOS AND
MS JULIE
COWANS
20 MAY 2008
Q140 Joan Walley: The other side
of building on Green Belt is to use brownfield sites more constructively.
I am just really wanting you to spell out for us the problems
that there are at the moment about current opportunities to build
on brownfield sites and, for example, the issues relating to Defra
and gap funding that could be available to deal with land remediation
not necessarily being available, and to what extent is English
Partnerships involved in town centre development on brownfield
sites? What more needs to be done to facilitate more and better-use
recycling of brownfield land?
Mr Bettison: There is no doubt
that the bringing into use of brownfield sites, especially sites
where contamination has occurred, is sometimes less attractive
to developers because of the question of the natural expense of
that land by the time the remediation of the contamination has
been taken into account. Also, some sites are not able to be brought
in for reuse as local authorities would wish because the organisation
that actually created the contamination is no longer around and,
therefore, there is no one, there is no company to pick up the
tab for the remediation of the land, and of course central government
funding through Defra is limited and we wish there were more of
that. The other thing of course is that providing the guarantees
after remediation is another extremely expensive thing to do,
and we feel that this is actually restricting the availability
of some brownfield sites which otherwise might be able to be recycled
and save pressure on greenfield sites.
Q141 Joan Walley: So how much is
the shortcoming of funding from Defra under the, I think it is,
1990 Environmental Protection Act, how much is that prohibiting
and what more can be done with the new agency that has been set
up?
Mr Wheatley: I think that is a
very good example of one of the big challenges to councils in
bringing forward housing development which is different parts
of government and different government programmes operating consistently
through all sorts of different capital investment streams, of
which remediation is one and there would be transport, funding
for new schools and so on, and one of the biggest challenges the
councils face is getting all these different government funding
programme ducks in a row to support the new development which
they are very much in favour of, but only if it can be realised.
The new Chief Executive-designate of the Homes and Communities
Agency, Sir Bob Kerslake, has been talking in a way which we find
very encouraging about a single conversation in the agency being
the basis for a single conversation between government and locality
about development, but, unless there is adequate funding in their
range of programmes, of which Defra's remediation is one, and
the Government allows the agency to pull the timing and the amount
of funding together in the right way, we will constantly get missed
opportunities in terms of development, whether it is on brownfield
or elsewhere.
Ms Cowans: I think this is potentially
very exciting, that the Homes and Communities Agency has started
to talk about different ways of funding to bring forward these
through equity investment and gap funding, and I think that, although
this is at kind of the exploratory stage at the moment, they have
a real willingness to think about the different ways of investing
public sector money rather than just kind of grant-giving, if
you like, investing public sector cash to make sure not only the
brownfield sites are brought forward, but that we are enabled
to achieve the affordable housing targets that we need to and
also to ensure that the quality of what is developed not only
meets environmental standards, but design quality as well. I share
the view that perhaps there will never be enough public subsidy
to go around, but I think that the transition team for the new
Homes and Communities Agency really do have a willingness to look
at very different ways of working, and they do have experience
through English Partnerships at some of this kind of working,
but of course it needs to be much more on a national scale. I
think the difference in the new arrangements will be that they
will be working much more closely with local authorities and local
planning authorities.
Q142 Joan Walley: Is the TCPA involved
in any pilot projects on that?
Ms Cowans: Not at the moment.
We have been holding discussions in an advisory capacity.
Q143 Joan Walley: Can I just ask
as well about the Empty Homes Agency which I think has set out
how currently empty properties could contribute something like
1.2 million homes that might be better, if you like, recycled
rather than going down this route of new building. Could that
be one example of using brownfield sites better?
Mr Amos: Certainly. We have actually
produced a pamphlet jointly with the Empty Homes Agency on bringing
empty homes back into use, but it is not going to make a big dent
on the three million target.
Q144 Joan Walley: So you do not recognise
the figure of 1.2 million being the number of empty homes that
could be brought into use?
Mr Amos: I have not studied their
most recent figures, but, if it is 1.2 million, then obviously
that could make a big contribution.
Q145 Martin Horwood: A 30% dent.
Mr Amos: Indeed, but I would still
think that the time that would be taken to get some of those into
use would be lengthy, and there is also a need for a continuing
stock of empty homes which are transferring from one ownership
to another and there will always be a small percentage of those,
so I think it is probably impossible to eliminate empty homes
completely, but clearly the contribution is welcome, we have always
welcomed it, but there is going to be an ongoing need for a significant
amount of new build.
Q146 Joan Walley: How big a contribution
do you think second homes are making to the housing shortage,
as it were?
Mr Amos: Well, clearly it is a
problem area. We have not submitted figures to you on second homes,
but we support an approach which increases the taxation on second
homes, and clearly the level of occupancy generally of housing
is of major importance as well as supply-side measures. We need
to use demand-side measures and supply-side measures if we are
going to meet the housing needs of the nation.
Mr Wheatley: I think we would
support the TCPA in that. The figures we have for long-term empties
as opposed to those that are just in the process of sale is 280,000.
On the one hand, that is not huge in relation to the three million,
but it is a useful contribution. Local authorities have relatively
recently been given new powers in the 2004 Housing Act, empty
property management orders, and it is fair to say that they are
getting into their stride in terms of working out how those can
be used to drive up the availability of housing in localities.
Our sister organisation LACORS, is certainly working to spread
understanding among local authorities about how they can use those
powers to increase housing supply locally, so it is a useful contribution
to the supply needed, but it is nothing like the whole and complete
answer to the challenge of the number of homes that we need to
secure.
Q147 Joan Walley: How much do you
think that that is linked, for example, in the Kate Barker Report,
to the focus on building in the South East if you are looking
to bring more empty properties that are empty into use without
there necessarily being the parallel investment in the economic
revival that needs to be taking place as well in some of the more
hard-to-let areas?
Mr Wheatley: We certainly agree
that wider economic questions in the housing market need to be
put together and the aspect of the sub-national review that we
support is a single regional strategy that brings planning, housing
and economic development together, and we think that, if we can
get the governance of the new regional institutions right so that
they are not imposing approaches on local people and local councils,
there ought to be scope to achieve what the Government is trying
to achieve which is a narrowing in the longstanding disparity
in economic growth rates between different regions, and that would
have a knock-on obviously in terms of demand for housing in areas
where it is historically needed.
Q148 Dr Turner: I would like to ask
you about eco-towns. What are your views on the criteria that
should be adopted in terms of eco-towns?
Mr Amos: Well, we have a very
long list of criteria, but I would perhaps just pick out a few
key points. The first thing in terms of the zero-carbon objective
is that we support the points that are made in the Government's
promotional material on eco-towns, that all the buildings across
the eco-towns would be zero carbon, so that is not just the housing,
it is more ambitious than the Building Regulations trajectory
and it would include commercial buildings where there are already
moves towards looking at Building Regulations there, but also
all public buildings. The second point I would raise is the transport
issue and achieving a serious modal shift from private car use
to the use of public transport and sustainable transport modes
is particularly important for the TCPA as one of the criteria
we will be applying. Thirdly is the high quality and plentiful
supply of green infrastructure with up to 40% of the eco-town
being green infrastructure. There are many more and we are producing
worksheets jointly with the Department and they are available
on our website with much more detail, but those are three key
areas for our Association.
Mr Wheatley: We would broadly
agree with the TCPA, that they need to be eco in a much wider
sense than being settlements of zero-carbon homes, and environmental
sustainability goes much wider, but, in addition, they have to
work on the two other aspects of sustainability, the social and
economic. You cannot lose sight of those because you are doing
something that is very progressive on the environmental side,
and we know, for example, that the Government talks of eco-towns
having up to 50% affordable housing which is a good objective
to have in itself, but we know from some decades of experience
of developments that, where there are high percentages of affordable
housing, one has to be particularly careful about getting all
the other economic and social elements in place to make them successful
and thriving communities.
Q149 Dr Turner: Taking that point,
do you have a view on whether it is better for eco-towns to be
intimately linked with local communities or to be separate and
freestanding and perhaps some miles away from the nearest larger
communities?
Mr Wheatley: I am not sure that
that question could be answered on a general national basis. In
some cases, it will make sense for economic and environmental
reasons to put a settlement adjacent to somewhere and elsewhere
maybe it will work to do it separately. You cannot answer those
questions in an abstract way, but that does lead us on to one
of our very important concerns about eco-towns which is that they
should only go ahead where the local community is satisfied that
they are fully sustainable and that the planning process has done
the work that it is set up to do which is to make sure that all
the different things that need to go into making a place successful
are there.
Q150 Dr Turner: Which of course is
not enshrined in the proposed legislation at the moment because
eco-towns bypass the planning system. I take it you are not entirely
happy with that.
Mr Bettison: That is absolutely
right. We believe, as has been said, in the principles of eco-towns,
but we believe that simply making dwellings ecologically sound
is no reason for bypassing the planning process which looks at
many of the other elements of a successful development. These
need to be holistic developments that will operate either as part
of a larger area, as you suggest, as an extension to the existing
conurbation or, alternatively, as a stand-alone, but in all cases,
if they are to be sustainable in every sense of the word, then
such elements as are normally dealt with by the planning process
must be taken account of, and at the moment, as we see it, there
is no restriction on them. In fact, if I may very quickly give
an example in my own authority, a developer with aspirations to
put 6,000 homes in a very unwelcome position suddenly announced
it was to be an eco-town and put in for an eco-town and, when
it was rejected, the managing director of the development company
simply said, "Oh well, it's back to plan A then".
Q151 Dr Turner: Another feature of
eco-towns is that they are meant to be exemplary developments
that will set the standard for other developments. What do you
think their wider influence will be and do you think there will
be enough time for eco-towns to influence a significant number
of the three million new homes targeted for 2020?
Mr Amos: First, perhaps I may
just associate ourselves with much of what was said by the LGA,
that we want to see proposals for eco-towns properly scrutinised.
In terms of the exemplary features, one in particular, I think,
is significant which is energy. The fact is that an entirely new
settlement offers pretty much unrivalled opportunities to put
in a new energy infrastructure which would be very difficult to
achieve, say, in Hackney where I happen to live. In doing that,
one might be able to supply not just the new eco-town, but the
neighbouring existing community, if there is one at a reasonably
short distance, so I think, depending very much on what the particular
circumstances are for that eco-town and there might be a fantastic
waste facility to be built in connection with the eco-town or
it might be a renewable energy installation, it depends on the
circumstances, they can then support the existing host and network
of places. There may be other links as well, such as economic
support and so forth, but I think looking at putting in new infrastructure
which is more comprehensive is the key point and then to enable
existing communities to feed into that.
Ms Cowans: I think that TCPA's
advice to the Government and to those considering eco-towns is
that they should be, as you quite rightly say, exemplars and that
they should take advantage of their position, topography, location,
et cetera, to experiment, and I think it will be important to
keep reminding government that this is not just about numbers,
it is about setting the barre, if you like, for the future and
what we want to see from new stock as a whole. Yes, you are quite
right, in the rush to numbers, in the rush to get something up
and running, we should not lose sight of that and that will require
constant monitoring.
Q152 Mr Chaytor: I would like to
ask about compliance with Building Regulations. We have some concerns
that this is not as effective as it might be and I wonder what
you think could be done to improve it.
Mr Wheatley: I think in the LGA
we have a concern that the twin challenges of a lot more housing
and achieving much higher standards of environmental sustainability
in our new build are putting hugely increased pressure on the
building control system. It really is in many areas, particularly
for the zero-carbon, the mechanism through which the Government's
policy ambition is being delivered, yet the current consultation
on building control does not seem to us to be taking a wider view
of that kind at all and only comes forward with very modest proposals
for improving the quality assurance of the building control process
largely led by the building control sector itself. It is likely
in our response to the consultation that we will be arguing, yes,
for a very strong sectoral approach to compliance, but backed
up with some sort of external quality control and check on whether
the regulations are actually being adhered to. One of the problems
is of course that, once the work has been signed off and the structure
sealed up, it is extremely difficult and it may be many years
before any deficiencies become obvious, so we certainly do share
the Committee's concern to an extent and will be arguing for a
rather more solid standard of quality assurance.
Q153 Mr Chaytor: Is the fact that
people can choose which inspector to come and inspect their property
a serious issue or not, that you have the right to choose whether
it is a local authority inspector or a private inspector? Is that
a concern to you or not? Is there any evidence that people are
sort of playing the market to get a less rigorous inspection?
Ms Cowans: I am a former member
of the Building Regulator's Advisory Committee, so I can bore
at length on this! I think that regulation is only as good, and
you can have the most fantastic building regulations and policies
from Europe, but they are only as good as the compliance and,
although there are isolated incidents of developers playing the
market, if you like, for inspection, I think they are relatively
isolated. On the whole, I think we can be quite confident that
the building inspection service, whoever provides it, is quite
robust. The problem is, as my colleague has outlined, that you
cannot inspect every house. One of the things that had been in
discussion some years ago and, I believe, might be on the agenda
again is to think about industry self-regulation, fine, but with
tougher penalties if that industry regulation is not adhered to
in terms of compliance completely, so penalties along with the
freedoms to self-regulate from the industry, I think, might be
the way forward.
Q154 Mr Chaytor: So in terms of not
inspecting every house, are you saying that, as of now, not every
new build is inspected?
Ms Cowans: Yes. Often it is percentages.
Q155 Mr Chaytor: Why have I just
paid £250 for my inspection? Did I have a choice to do that
or not?
Ms Cowans: In major developments,
it would be a cross-section of the properties, a representative
sample.
Q156 Mr Chaytor: But every individual
development will be inspected?
Ms Cowans: Yes.
Q157 Mr Chaytor: Are there enough
inspectors or is there a skills shortage here?
Mr Amos: We are also concerned
that the local authorities report a lack of resources to provide
enough inspectors is a worry because planning departments also
rely on building inspectors to enforce conditions and the lack
of enforcement of planning conditions is a sore issue and is a
big problem.
Mr Wheatley: Part of the Department's
consultation is a proposal to deregulate the fees that local authority
building inspectors charge and I think that ought to be helpful
if it enables councils to charge an economic rate and, therefore,
resource the service. As I said earlier, I think there is a big
delivery co-ordination challenge for the Department in zero-carbon
homes and this issue of building control and whether we have got
enough skills when the system is working right is a very good
example of where we need stronger leadership from central government
in making sure that the different elements that we need in place
are actually there.
Chairman: Well, thank you very much indeed
for coming in.
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