Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
MR BOB
MOORE, PROFESSOR
SHEILA CRISPIN,
MS ANDREA
JEFFERY AND
MS JANE
HERN
18 FEBRUARY 2008
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon. Welcome
to the Committee's first formal session on our short inquiry into
the need for change in the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. I welcome
from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, Bob Moore, the
current President, Sheila Crispin, Senior Vice President, Andrea
Jeffery, the Chair of the Royal College's Veterinary Nurses' Council,
and Jane Hern, their Registrar. The Committee had the benefit
of an informal briefing just before this session to get some idea
of the landscape and structure of the profession and to ask one
or two points to enable us to get a better understanding, as lay
people in this field, about how the profession is structured and
operates, and to look at one or two aspects of the Act. However,
from now onwards the proceedings are fully on the record and in
public; that which you say cannot be altered, although we are
always open to further submissions if there is something you have
thought about afterwards but did not think to tell us. I thank
everybody who has sent evidence in writing to the Committee; we
are very grateful indeed for that. Can I start with a general
question and ask you to put on record why you think the current
Act is limited and why we need a new piece of primary legislation.
I must say that at constituency level I have not been bombarded
by local vets crying out for change—they send out other
pieces of paper but not those! It would be helpful, looking at
the structure of the Act, to outline to us where it is deficient,
for example in secondary legislation order-making powers that
might enable some of the concerns you have expressed to us to
be dealt with in terms of legislation. What is your impression
about Defra's willingness to get on with the job of bringing the
1966 Act up to date, to effectively recognise over forty years
of change in your profession?
Mr Moore: Shall I start at the
beginning? Your first question is—
Q2 Chairman: Yes, it would be good
to start at the beginning; otherwise it will lose the lucidness
of the logic and flow.
Mr Moore: Why we feel there is
a need for new legislation to control the veterinary profession:
there are five points I would like to make. The first one is that
we think it is essential to separate the functions of rule-making,
investigation of complaints and adjudication of complaints. Currently,
all of those functions are vested in individuals of the Royal
College of Veterinary Surgeons' Council, the Disciplinary Committee
and the Preliminary Investigation Committee and the rule-making,
which is a function of the whole Council. That is the first and
major point. Perhaps I will develop that one a bit further. The
perception is, to those from the outside, that that may not be
a fair and equitable state of affairs. It is not consistent with
other healthcare professions. It is not compliant with human rights
legislation; and although we have made as many changes as we can,
within the current legal framework, we feel that those changes
do not go far enough. It leaves the College open to a legal challenge
that the people involved with the rule-making are also there as
investigators and judges.
Q3 Chairman: That is a perceived
legal challenge. You have not had one yet, have you?
Mr Moore: No.
Q4 Chairman: So it is a risk you
think might be there.
Ms Hern: There has been an issue
raised before the Disciplinary Committee by a respondent who felt
that Council members sitting on the Disciplinary Committee may
not be as impartial as they might be because they—
Q5 Chairman: They did not push it.
Ms Hern: No.
Q6 Chairman: So it is a fear that
has been alerted, but it has not happened yet. Carry on, Mr Moore.
Mr Moore: In very brief summary,
that is the first point. The other points are not as urgent but
they are, we feel, very necessary. The second one is to have powers
to ensure that veterinary surgeons keep up to date. Currently,
there is a professional duty for them to carry out continuing
professional development, CPD, but there is no legal requirement
for them to do so. Thirdly, we want to recognise the veterinary
nursing profession as a profession in their own right and to bring
veterinary nurses into full statutory regulation. We have the
Chairman of the VN Council with us this afternoon. We feel that
it is necessary to change the composition of the Royal College
Council to increase the amount of lay representation. At the moment
there are five lay members of the Council, and we feel that is
not enough in a council of forty people.
Q7 Chairman: Just to be clear, you
do not want to go beyond forty, but you want more lay people to
make up the forty.
Professor Crispin: The numbers
might actually reduce as well. That is something we would look
at. That is important because we do feel forty is quite large.
Ms Hern: If you were having separate
people performing the adjudication and the investigation functions
that you would not need to take from members of Council, you could
have the Council as the standards-setting body with a much smaller
number.
Q8 Chairman: Can I be clear, as a
small point: is this proposal for the whole of the United Kingdom?
Ms Hern: Correct, yes.
Q9 Chairman: I am assuming from that,
as far as Scotland is concerned, that there is not a problem with
devolved legislation.
Ms Hern: Not for the current profession
of veterinary surgeons, no. I am not so certain about regulation
of new professions, as it were, of veterinary nurses and others.
Q10 Chairman: In theory, unless it
is fixed, you could have Scotland saying, "Ah, well, there
are a lot of all these para-professionals; we will have a separate
subset of law dealing with them because they are not affected
by Royal Charter matters; and we can have one in England and Wales
that looks different."
Ms Hern: In theory I fear you
might be right.
Q11 Chairman: I am just exploring
the scope.
Ms Hern: I understand that what
is reserved is the regulation of the profession of veterinary
surgeons.
Q12 Chairman: It would make sense,
though, would it not, to have something that was nationwide so
that wherever you were you knew you were getting the same deal?
Ms Hern: Yes. There is an exception
in relation to Northern Ireland.
Q13 Chairman: Mr Moore has got his
fifth point.
Mr Moore: That was the fourth
point. The fifth and final point that I want to bring to you now,
is that we want to regulate the delivery of veterinary services.
Currently, the royal College can only legislate or adjudicate
on individual members of the profession. We have no right to legislate
against a practice or a group of people working together; we have
only legislative powers for the individual. We feel that the delivery
of veterinary services, where currently it is much more of a veterinary
team delivering those services, we need to have powers to look
at the delivery of the services. Those are the five main reasons
why we feel that new legislation is required.
Q14 Chairman: I made two other points.
One was about the scope and opportunity for secondary legislation
to deal with that, so how do you respond to that? Do we need a
new act?
Ms Hern: The existing order-making
powers in the 1966 Act are very limited and very specific to things
like the registration process or setting the rules for the statutory
exam. In other professions there are much broader ranging order-making
powers that would enable us ultimately to repeal the current 1966
Act and put a completely new framework in place. There is no problem
about working with secondary legislation, but we have not got
the order-making powers at the moment.
Q15 Chairman: Your Council includes,
as one of its members, the Chief Vet, and you are always popping
round to Defra; they have always got some animal health crisis
that they need your professional input and advice on, so you are
really quite matey with the Department. You are good buddies together,
dealing with all these animal issues. Given that you are a pretty
important profession as far as Defra is concerned—if things
go wrong in your area like foot and mouth, it is £4.5 billion
up the shoot, so you would think the Department would be fully
aware of all your professional demands and bending over backwards
to assist you to be a modern, 21st century, professional body,
able to deal with all of the issues. Why are we not seeing Defra
beating a path to your door with a new draft act for discussion?
Why this reluctance?
Mr Moore: They have had a lot
of legislation to deal with recently. The Animal Welfare Act occupied
a considerable amount of their time; and there is always other
legislation that they are dealing with and other problems, as
you so rightly pointed out. The reason that we are given is that
there is not time available for them to address this issue.
Chairman: Compared to the Home Office,
where hardly a day goes past without a new Home Office piece of
legislation—they have the Animal Welfare Act, it is perfectly
true, and they have a climate change bill in the pipeline at the
moment, and they have legislative consultation on a marine bill;
but I am struggling beyond that to see—
Paddy Tipping: Cost-sharing—
Q16 Chairman: Cost sharing, but that
is not a piece of legislation, it is a policy. Wait and see! Mr
Tipping is very good on forthcoming attractions: if you want to
know what is happening, this is the man to tell you! We have done
animal welfare and we are doing climate change, and we have this
wonderful—
Mr Moore: That is the reason that
we are given, the—
Q17 Chairman: I know you are given
it, but what do you say to them? When you get the Chief Vet on
your Council, do you not say: "Look here, Chief Vet, why
have you not done some bidding for us and brought us a new ...
.."? You have! What did they tell you?
Ms Hern: That is the one that
was progressing it rather nicely for us.
Q18 Chairman: The previous one was?
Ms Hern: Yes.
Q19 Chairman: What do you mean, Ms
Hern, by "progressing it nicely"?
Ms Hern: We had spent some time
with the Chief Veterinary Officer who recently retired, and she
was persuaded of the need for legislation, as were a number of
other officials.
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