Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
MR BOB
MOORE, PROFESSOR
SHEILA CRISPIN,
MS ANDREA
JEFFERY AND
MS JANE
HERN
18 FEBRUARY 2008
Q40 Miss McIntosh: In terms of every
bill that comes through competing for parliamentary time and Government
priorities, how big a bill would you be looking at?
Ms Hern: You can either go for
a single clause if you were being very minimalist about it, just
to give the equivalent of section 60 in the Health Act 1999, and
then we could go from there; or you could have something that
was more detailed; but, again, it would still in the modern day
be fairly skeletal with various order-making powers attached.
Q41 Miss McIntosh: Am I right in
my understanding that there are currently statutory instruments
either before Parliament or coming to Parliament under the European
Directive?
Ms Hern: Yes.
Q42 Miss McIntosh: But you are saying
it would not be appropriate to try and—
Ms Hern: They are using powers
under the European Communities Act and not under the Veterinary
Surgeons Act to make amendments, so the amendments are limited
in that sense—frustratingly.
Q43 Chairman: Your Council is predominantly
an appointed one: do you not think it should be elected?
Mr Moore: The current one, you
mean?
Q44 Chairman: Yes.
Mr Moore: The current one is twelve
appointed by the universities and four appointed by Privy Council,
and 24 elected.
Q45 Chairman: Should they not all
be elected?
Ms Hern: That would be going against
the grain of what Government has accepted in the healthcare sector.
I would not want to go as far as having all appointed for the
very reason that the finances of the organisation come from veterinary
surgeons and potentially veterinary nurses, and I think they should
have some say and therefore be elected on to the body that spends
the money—"no taxation without representation",
you might say.
Q46 Chairman: Give me a feel, in
the new world we are moving towards, what proportion you would
ideally want to be appointed and elected. We know what the current
structure is, but have you given thought as to—
Ms Hern: The two splits, if you
like—the veterinary surgeon and non-veterinary surgeon—I
think the non-veterinary surgeon people would have to be appointed.
I could not really see a mechanism for electing non-veterinary
surgeons; but in terms of the veterinary surgeon component of
Council members—I do not know—50/50 appointed and
elected. You would, I would say, need some elected members.
Q47 Mr Drew: How do you ensure you
get representation from across the whole profession? As you know,
I was asking about the plight of those veterinary practices that
deal with large animals: what is to prevent there being a complete—if
you like, no such practice representatives being on the Council?
Ms Hern: Nothing, because it is
not structured to be representative of the profession as such.
Q48 Mr Drew: You could end up with
a very unbalanced Council, with more dealing with pets and small
animals and so on.
Ms Hern: You could. It has not
happened in the ten years that I have been involved, and in any
event you can always get some redressing of that balance by membership
of committees that work with Council.
Q49 Mr Drew: Presumably, parallels
with BMA would be such that they could never have that situation?
Ms Hern: But they are a representative
body, not the regulatory body.
Q50 Mr Drew: I know, but they have
an influence over the regulatory role. I just see it a bit strange
that, given you are a very diverse profession, that you cannot
necessarily have that representation on your Council. Have you
discussed this or is this something that—
Professor Crispin: It is interesting
that you raise it because it has not happened. We have at the
moment people drawn from academic life. Admittedly they are appointed,
but within the people who are elected we cover most aspects of
the profession, including industry and commerce, as well as small
and large animal and equine. We are lucky, you could say, that
it has not happened.
Q51 Chairman: Is 25% the right number
of lay people on the Council?
Mr Moore: Currently or in the
future?
Q52 Chairman: For the future. Given
a free hand, is 25% the right number?
Ms Hern: The minimum, I would
have said.
Mr Moore: I think it should be
more than that—I think between 25 and 50%: Somewhere in
there it is going to be about the right proportion of lay people.
Q53 Chairman: When are you going
to decide on what the right number is, if you are going to try
and persuade somebody to draft a new law?
Mr Moore: As soon as we put pen
to paper in the final draft, we would put that figure down.
Q54 Dr Strang: Presumably, you have
fairly regular consultation with veterinary surgeons and have
a dialogue with them, so any ideas you have are to some extent
influenced by their collective view.
Mr Moore: We have tried to maintain
an open and regular relationship with the BVA. They are privy
to all the paperwork that we produce. They have had representatives
on the working group that has considered the new veterinary legislation,
and we need both in a formal way—we have meetings with the
BVA formally and we meet informally on a regular basis; and the
VSA is a regular topic of conversation.
Q55 Dr Strang: Coming to the question
of veterinary nurses, as you know Defra has put forward the idea
that they should be separately regulated. Obviously the alternative
to that is that you would regulate them. What is your view on
that
Mr Moore: We have already done
as much as we can do, in giving the veterinary nurses their own
council. Andrea can tell you some details about the voluntary
self-regulation that is already in place. We cannot go any further
than we have already gone under current legislation.
Q56 Dr Strang: Defra is envisaging
setting up a separate body, presumably with new legislation.
Mr Moore: We are proposing two
councils, a veterinary surgeons' council and a veterinary nurses'
council—two separate bodies to regulate each of the different
professions.
Ms Hern: It will come together
when you come to complaints, investigation and adjudication because
of the team-working; it would be difficult, I think, for a member
of the public to pursue a complaint if they were having to go
in two different directions for the nurse member of the team and
the veterinary surgeon member of the team.
Ms Jeffrey: The nurses: in September
last year, following consultation, we established the Veterinary
Nurses' Register and the nurses were asked then whether they would
like something independent or linked to the Royal College. Those
questions were also asked in 2005 and earlier when this was all
first discussed. It is perceived that there will be two separate
councils within the Royal College because we are all part of the
veterinary team, and then this board, as Jane has just described.
Q57 Dr Strang: Defra, presumably,
agrees with that as well, as far as you know.
Ms Hern: As far as we know their
view, yes.
Q58 Dr Strang: They are not proposing
anything that would be a complete separation.
Ms Hern: I do not think so.
Q59 Dr Strang: Moving on to the regulation
of para-professionals, how do you think the new Act should regulate
the different para-professional groups?
Ms Hern: We are not actively proposing
that it should, on the basis that the Royal College of Veterinary
Surgeons is looking at the regulation of veterinary surgeons and
bringing the veterinary nurses on board to be a parallel profession.
It is perhaps a little invidious of the Royal College of Veterinary
Surgeons to start saying who else should do whatever they should
do; but if Government has a view about what else needs to be regulated,
that would be fine. We would say as a bottom line that anybody
treating animals should be appropriately trained for the purpose
and accountable for what they do; but beyond that there is a potential
conflict of interest in the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons
saying which group of para-professionals should be allowed to
do what. The profession might find it be helpful to be able to
delegate procedures to certain para-professionals but there would
need to be a structure for ensuring that they were adequately
trained and accountable for what they do.
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