Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380-399)
JONATHAN SHAW
MP, MS HELOISE
TIERNEY AND
MS ANN
BENNETT
18 JUNE 2008
Q380 Mr Drew: So that is it. That
will be a completely ring-fenced sum of money, and not a penny
more.
Jonathan Shaw: For ten years.
Q381 Mr Drew: That is not an awful
lot of money for the sort of schemes you are talking about, because
there is going to be a degree of repair and renovation and opening
up. It is not going to go very far.
Jonathan Shaw: £50 million
has not been plucked out of the air. It has taken account of the
criticism that arose from the Public Accounts Committee into our
last scheme, which was countryside rights of way. We have done
the analysis and the work and we believe that £50 million
is the appropriate amount of money. Perhaps I can ask Heloise
if she has any more detail.
Ms Tierney: The £50 million
was the amount which was proposed by Natural England as the amount
of money they thought it would take. It was not something which
we imposed on them. They came to that figure by analysing the
sort of work they would need to do. They looked at the costs of
funding the work in local authorities; they looked at the cost
of putting in new means of access, steps, paths, et cetera. They
had a consultant called RPA who looked at the possible costs of
access and looked at the average cost of work on national trails,
so they did base their figures on a lot of research and they have
not suggested that they would need more money. They have said
that that is a sufficient amount of money.
Q382 Mr Drew: Is it front-ended in
the sense that clearly, to get the coastal access right, there
is going to be more money expended in the early years of the decade?
Jonathan Shaw: It rather depends
on how Natural England go about the work, and that will be a matter
for them to manage and make the decisions upon that. We expect
Natural England to begin where they can have the most impact around
the coastline. Then it is a ten-year project.
Q383 Mr Drew: So it is possible that
if there are a lot of front-ended requirements in terms of setting
a route up, that money could be used up fairly quickly.
Jonathan Shaw: Natural England,
as you have heard, David, have agreed the sum and we have discussed
it. They have said to me that they are happy with that amount
of money, and it is for them now to get on and to manage the project.
Whether they start front end or back end or middle, it is for
them to manage and determine how they spend that money over the
decade.
Q384 Mr Drew: Did you factor in that
all repair work would be incorporated within that budgetary sum,
or is there an implication that there will be responsibility with
other providers, principally local authorities or maybe the National
Trust?
Jonathan Shaw: As the Chairman
mentioned, there is opportunity for agri-environment schemes.
Obviously, within the Rural Development Programme for England,
which is £3.9 billion over a seven-year period, much of which
Natural England will manage, there will be opportunities there,
as there have been, principally in Cornwall, to help facilitate
and provide opportunities.
Q385 Mr Drew: So there is other money
that is not within this?
Jonathan Shaw: I do not have a
breakdown of how many fences and stiles Natural England think
they are going to put in. That is not for the Government or me
or the officials. That is for our conservation agency, Natural
England.
Q386 Mr Drew: Finally, of course,
there is no allocation of money for compensation for any landowner
who wants to object to people going across his land.
Jonathan Shaw: No.
Q387 Mr Drew: Did you do any calculations
at all in terms of what that would cost?
Jonathan Shaw: No. I have not
had discussions about how much it would cost. The reason why is
because central to the proposed legislation is the duty that Natural
England have to get the balance right, so if in the discussions
with landowners and in preparing a route they have discussions
and there are areas where there are difficulties, then Natural
England would want to find a way round that, and that is what
they will do. The issue of compensation we do not believe will
arise. That is our view.
Q388 Mr Drew: There is a possibility
though of legal challenges. Some people are going to object to
this, as they have done with the CROW Act. Thankfully, in a sense,
because you have much more land to play with in terms of CROW,
there are always alternatives. It is very difficult to find an
alternative to the coastline unless you go miles inland, which
is not then a coastal access path.
Jonathan Shaw: It will be a four-metre
narrow strip. We think there are huge opportunities to ensure
that there is a coastal path along where you describe. There may
be circumstances where Natural England do have to look at that
in order to find a way through. There are many possibilities.
Q389 Paddy Tipping: Minister, you
mentioned agri-environment schemes. In the early discussions about
the proposal there was a view that it would be possible to lift
the landscape and enhance the environment. The money that is available
at the moment is, in a sense, just to create the access. Is it
still your intention to try and raise the quality of the environment
along this route?
Jonathan Shaw: You will know,
Paddy, that one of the Department's PSA targets is people enjoying
the natural environment, so with people going to the natural environment
and enjoying the coastal path, our country, it is important that
we protect sensitive nature conservation areas, but I think as
well there will be every possibility for enhancement. That is
the job of Natural England, and in their discussions with landowners,
where the opportunities arise for the use of the £3.9 billion,
I hope that they will be able to put it to good effect. Obviously,
it will not cover every eventuality but one can easily conceive
of situations arising where there will be possibilities for enhancement
through that sum of money.
Q390 David Taylor: I wonder about
the adequacy of the financial projections that Defra is working
to. Defra's track record has not always been sparkling in this
area, in the life of this Committee. A figure that was put to
us, and I would like you to comment on it, was that the quite
indented coastline of Essex would lead to a fencing requirement—just
one length, not either side—of about 500 kilometres. The
minimum fencing cost would be about £4.50 per metre. That
is about £2.5 million, not counting the costs of erection
and all the other costs that may be associated with it. Does that
seem to you to be a figure in the right area and does it represent
good value for the taxpayer?
Jonathan Shaw: Sorry? You believe
that there needs to be a fence along the Essex coast?
Q391 David Taylor: If it were fenced.
Jonathan Shaw: Why does it have
to be fenced?
Q392 David Taylor: It might be fenced
to protect livestock from walkers and walkers from livestock,
that sort of thing.
Jonathan Shaw: Right. As I say,
I do not know that detail, David. That would be for Natural England.
Q393 David Taylor: It is a very important
detail, is it not?
Jonathan Shaw: As I say, the work
needs to be undertaken, and there may be other situations around
the English coast of a similar nature, of which I also do not
have the detail, but the projection of the money that Natural
England have advised the Department that they can undertake this
work over the ten-year period is £50 million. As I said,
we are acutely aware of the criticism that has come from this
Committee on a number of finance situations—I am thinking
of the Rural Payments Agency, but also the criticism on CROW,
£20 million to £60 million from the Public Accounts
Committee. We have learned the lessons from that. I do not know
the detail about Essex. Do you know the detail about Essex, Heloise?
Ms Tierney: No, but the detail
of how the figures in the impact assessments have been arrived
at are in the Asken research. That shows the assumptions which
have been made and Natural England have also made assumptions
based on talking to a number of local authorities and their experience
of national trails and have come up with assumptions about the
amount of coast which is likely to be fenced. Certainly we would
not expect the whole of the Essex coast, or probably very much
of the Essex coast, to be fenced but there is detail which we
can point you towards in the supporting evidence.
Q394 David Taylor: Is one of your
colleagues, or perhaps even you, in charge of the responsibility
of tracking the financial commitments and financial resources
available to ensure that the ambitions do march in line with the
money that the Government will be willing to grant to this project?
Ms Tierney: Yes, and I think that
is something where we have moved on a long way since we started
the estimates for CROW, that we do have, as I think the National
Audit Office accepted; we do have proper project and programme
management systems in place now and we will be tracking how the
estimates develop and how the work develops.
David Taylor: You are not going to out-source
this in the RPA way, are you? You are not going to take consultants
in at great cost to tell you what we already know?
Q395 Chairman: I am a little bit
concerned, Minister, about your absolute trust that Natural England
have got it right.
Jonathan Shaw: On the £50
million?
Q396 Chairman: Yes. You said, "It
is up to Natural England, they have done all this work, we are
accepting it, therefore because we are accepting it, because they
say it is right, this policy can be delivered." Perhaps you
will not be surprised to learn, because I am sure the evidence
that we have received has been faithfully reported back to you
by your scribes who have attended our sessions, the Devon County
Council witnesses, all expressed concern as to whether the amount
of money was actually right. I would be very surprised, to be
quite frank, coming back to what Ms Tierney said, that there is
a lot of detail which Defra have looked at to make you feel comfortable
that that number is right. Did you receive any kind of presentation
from your officials to give you that warm and comfortable feel
that Natural England had got it right?
Jonathan Shaw: I have asked questions—
Q397 Chairman: No, the question I
asked was, have you actually had a detailed presentation from
your officials to give you the comfort that the £50 million
is doable and will deliver this project?
Jonathan Shaw: I have had detailed
presentations from officials for all aspects of the Marine Bill,
Chairman.
Q398 Chairman: You said earlier on
there were certain items of detail which you actually had not
looked at.
Jonathan Shaw: Mr Drew was asking
me about the detail and I was saying I did not know every stile
and fence that Natural England were going to be erect around the
coastline. That was a slightly flippant remark, Chairman.
Q399 Chairman: First of all, you
made it very clear to us at the beginning that there had been
widespread consultation as you developed the policy.
Jonathan Shaw: Yes.
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