Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
THE HON
RALPH O'NEAL
AND THE
HON KURT
TIBBETTS
3 DECEMBER 2007
Chairman: I ask the public to take their
seats quickly and switch off their mobile phones, please. Last
week, for the first time, I had to throw someone out of an evidence
session, and I will not hesitate to do that again, so please turn
them off or put them in silent mode—I heard one then; that
is a good warning.
Good afternoon, gentlemen, and welcome. As you
know, the Foreign Affairs Committee is, after many years, conducting
an inquiry into the Overseas Territories, and we thought we would
take the opportunity provided by the important meeting that you
have in London this week to have an evidence session with those
of you who were able to find the time to take part. Regrettably,
not everybody has been able to, but we are very pleased that a
number of you have been able to find the time to be with us today
to give us your impressions and to answer questions about your
Overseas Territory. I shall begin by asking you to introduce yourselves.
Ralph O'Neal: I am Ralph T. O'Neal,
Premier of the British Virgin Islands.
Kurt Tibbetts: My name is Kurt
Tibbetts. I am the Leader of Government Business in the Cayman
Islands.
Q1 Chairman: How would you characterise
your relationship with your Governors at the moment?
Ralph O'Neal: I was just elected
as Premier on 20 August, so I have not really worked with the
Governor long enough to find out what kind of man he is, but he
has his job to do and I have mine, and so far we have been working.
We have not quarrelled yet.
Q2 Chairman: That is a good sign.
Do you anticipate quarrelling at some point?
Ralph O'Neal: As I tell people
when they are being sworn in—I have said this many times—there
is always a rift between the Governor and those who are governed.
Those who represent those who are governed will one day come up
against it.
Q3 Chairman: What about you, Mr.
Tibbetts? How is the situation from your point of view in the
Cayman Islands?
Kurt Tibbetts: If you do not mind,
I would like to speak not about the personal relationships, but
about the relationship between Governor and government.
Chairman: That is absolutely fine.
Kurt Tibbetts: The Cayman Islands
is now in the process of constitutional modernisation. When we
get to the negotiating table, there will be several areas that
we will wish to discuss with regard to moving a little away from
what obtains at present. The relationship that obtains now is
that the Governor chairs the Cabinet and decides on Cabinet agendas.
We think that time has evolved to the point where that should
not be the case. We have a very vibrant democracy and the elected
government should, we believe, have more of a say when it comes
to deciding the agendas for Cabinet and who chairs Cabinet meetings.
We respect the relationship involved in being an Overseas Territory,
but we believe that in many instances the role of the Governor
as is needs to be changed a little to allow more of a partnership
to exist.
Q4 Chairman: Do you believe that
you should be formally consulted on the appointment of Governors?
Kurt Tibbetts: First, I do believe
that common courtesy should dictate that; but we have our own
experiences with the word "consultation" and being consulted.
If it is simply being told who that good person is, we do not
consider that to be consultation. We do believe that there should
be some consultation. We respect the fact that the Governor is
the UK's representative in each of the jurisdictions, and that
because of the constitutional arrangements he is head of state;
but we have to live with him every day while he is there. Although
we certainly do not expect to be on the committee that appoints
the Governor and to be involved in the interviews and so on, we
believe that it is only fair that we have wind of who is being
considered and see some type of biography, so that we can have
a look and perhaps pass on our opinions.
Ralph O'Neal: I, too, believe
that the word "consultation" needs a wider meaning.
In the British Virgin Islands, we have a cabinet system; the Governor,
the Premier and the secretary to the Cabinet fix the agenda. However,
when it comes to appointing somebody and sending him without even
telling us who he is, where he is from and what is his background,
how do they know that he is going to fit in with the community?
The elected representatives should be the persons to judge that.
We have had experience of Governors who just did not fit into
the community; they were respected only because they were Her
Majesty's representatives. It needs something more, so that we
can say, "Well, if he turns out to be a misfit, we can take
some of the blame."
Q5 Mr. Illsley: Mr. Tibbetts, you
said that you were about to begin some form of consultation on
the role of the Governor and modernising.
Kurt Tibbetts: The consultation
would be for a new constitution.
Q6 Mr. Illsley: Do you expect any
resistance from the Governor or the UK Government to what you
have proposed? I believe that the subject was raised back in 1998,
and the Government rejected it then. Do you see any change?
Kurt Tibbetts: We have had the
benefit of seeing the results of the modernisation process in
three Territories in recent times—the British Virgin Islands
under my good friend Ralph O'Neal, the Turks and Caicos Islands
and Gibraltar. We have seen the end result of their negotiations.
I think that there may be a few other variations to what they
received as their framework that we would wish to see.
I would not like to use the word "resistance"
because we respect the fact that, for as long as we wish to retain
the constitutional status of a British Overseas Territory, it
is only fair to expect the UK Government to have some hand in
our government. We know that it is always a question of liability,
and that they wish to ensure that they do not find out too late
if the country is doing something wrong. We understand that. However,
we are going to seek a certain level of autonomy to ensure that
the democratic process is truly democratic, and that the elected
representatives who represent the people—in my case, the
people of the Cayman Islands—are able to do so fairly freely,
understanding the limitations of the constitutional arrangements.
I do not expect resistance, and I think that we shall simply be
very realistic about it. We are going to ask for what we think
is right, and we will see what the outcome is.
Q7 Sir John Stanley: Mr. Tibbetts,
will you give us a bit of background to how the constitutional
review came about? Your constitution has been essentially unchanged,
I think, since 1972.
Kurt Tibbetts: We have had minor
amendments.
Q8 Sir John Stanley: Will you clarify
for us whether in the Cayman Islands you had been pressing for
some time against resistance from the Foreign Office here for
a constitutional review; or did it work the other way round—were
they pressing you to review the constitution and you were resistant
to it? Can you explain the background?
Kurt Tibbetts: I have to say that
I do not think it was either one of the two. It was a combination
of many things. We have had minor amendments since 1972 and there
was an attempt in the very early '90s, but elections caused the
process not to be completed. We restarted those engines in 2002
and this was based more on the White Paper that was produced,
"Partnership for Progress and Prosperity". We were told
that the UK Government wanted the Territories to look at their
constitutions with a view to modernising, but there was no real
pressure, that I know of, brought to bear. We started the process;
unfortunately, we had already begun negotiations with the Government
and at the end of the day we had a draft constitution sent to
us, but the Government of the day decided to scrap it. That is
my best way to explain it in short terms.
Q9 Sir John Stanley: Which year was
that?
Kurt Tibbetts: That was 2003.
We had elections in 2005 and we are now back on track with a new
secretariat set up. The process has started again. We intend to
begin public consultation very early next year and go through
a referendum, perhaps by May, with a view to beginning negotiations
very shortly after that. To answer your question quickly and to
give you the background, there was no pressure put on the Cayman
Islands by any of Her Majesty's Government's representatives,
for this to be done within a given time frame. They told us that
they were quite happy to work along with us at our pace, to ensure
that we would get the best that we could get, and that that would
satisfy them, whenever we could complete that process.
Q10 Chairman: Mr. O'Neal, you already
have your new constitution. Could you tell us how you feel about
it? Is it satisfactory? Do you have any views about the negotiation
process that led to it?
Ralph O'Neal: The present constitution
is one that I helped to form. I was on the delegation and we had
some very good sessions here in London. It provided for things
that the people asked for; we got that. There are one or two little
things that need mopping up, you know; but I suppose that will
come after three or four years, by making minor amendments.
The process really was one where people throughout
the Territory were consulted. There were three sessions in the
BVI with representatives of the United Kingdom Government, and
the final one was here, in February. By 15 June, the constitution
was brought into operation. We are now getting the various instruments
of the constitution. Some have been brought in already. We have
to get a reformed judicial and legal commission. It has been enlarged
from three members to five. We have a new commission—the
police service commission, which the new constitution provides
for. It also provides for two additional elected members, but
before that we need an electoral boundaries commissioner to decide
whether they should be members for a district, or at large. We
are seeking a commissioner to be appointed to do that. But by
and large, the majority of the people, as far as I know, are satisfied
with what has been achieved.
Chairman: Thank you. That is helpful.
Q11 Mr. Horam: Could I ask you about
the Overseas Territories Consultative Council? How useful a forum
do you find this to be in practice?
Ralph O'Neal: I think it is a
most useful institution. I remember being at the very first meeting.
This is my fifth meeting. I find that the Overseas Territories
have gained some use from it—for example, the United Kingdom
passport that we are able to get now, as a result of which people
can travel much more easily, especially to America; and the reduction
in the fees for students from the Territories. When the OTCC started
we had about five or 10 students in the UK; now we have 65. Although
the cost of living here is higher than in the United States, it
is a great achievement for us to have our students coming here,
especially those who are studying law. They can qualify here in
the United Kingdom.
Q12 Mr. Horam: Do you feel satisfied
with the sort of input you can have, for example, into the setting
of the agenda for the OTCC? Do you have enough time with Ministers?
Ralph O'Neal: Yes. The heads of
the Territories are written to and asked to suggest items for
the agenda. I think that Mr. Tibbetts will confirm that all their
suggestions are included. Our requests are treated very sympathetically
and after the discussions and recommendations, action is taken
to follow them up. It is not simply a talking shop; there is also
some action. That is one of the excellent things about it.
Q13 Mr. Horam: Do you agree with
that, Mr. Tibbetts?
Kurt Tibbetts: I agree, but I
would like to add to that. My good friend Ralph speaks of the
value of the OTCC meetings, and it certainly is good that we are
able to have them. The OTCC is a good forum for all of the Overseas
Territories to get together. Geographically, we are many miles
apart in many instances. You have one group and then you have
another, but this forum allows us to discuss our many common concerns
and to make concerted representation through the OTCC to the Foreign
and Commonwealth Office, which will spread to the various Ministries
and other agencies that need to be dealt with.
The only comment I wish to make in relation
to what Premier O'Neal has said is that, although action is taken,
I have to say, after some of my own experiences, that that has
not been enough. I am certain that there are the best of intentions
with regard to all the information that is collated, all the requests
that are made, and all the discussions that take place. But sometimes,
we find that when it moves from within the FCO to whichever agency
has to deal with it, many times those agencies do not treat the
situation with the importance that we would like it to be treated
with, and sometimes we have to be chasing things up. Sometimes,
the next year that you come, the meetings are dealing with the
same matter.
Q14 Mr. Horam: Does an example come
to mind?
Kurt Tibbetts: You are putting
me on the spot. We have had instances with the Department for
Transport where we have been dealing with the same issue for two
or three years. I suspect that it might not just be that they
do not want to pay attention to it, but it might be that they
do not want to do what we are asking. Maybe we shall just keep
at it and hope for the best, but I can assure you that in many
instances it seems to us—if I can put it in a nutshell—that
although the FCO understands our plight, the various agencies
do not take the same positions. I guess that what we need is for
the political arm of Government to say, "Listen, you need
to respect these people. They do exist, and they are real,"
if I may put it like that.
Q15 Mr. Horam: And are you able to
follow matters up? Where you are dissatisfied, and something has
taken two or three years, you bring it back to the Consultative
Council, presumably.
Kurt Tibbetts: Many times we try
through our Governors, and if we do not get results, then when
we come to the next meeting, and we go at it again.
Q16 Mr. Horam: May I ask you about
the way the FCO consults you about ratifying treaties which apply
to the Overseas Territories? Is the way that it consults you on
those satisfactory?
Kurt Tibbetts: I am going to be
very blunt, but respectful. Our experiences have not been very
good in the past. However, we have had certain assurances given
to us in recent times that there will be more consultation. I
would just say that not enough time has passed for us to have
had enough interaction and experiences to say yes, the whole culture
has changed. But in a nutshell, we raised holy hell, if I may
term it like that, especially about the savings tax directive,
which we only knew about when it was all over, and that kind of
spurred on the discussion.
Q17 Mr. Horam: That had a massive
effect on you?
Kurt Tibbetts: We do not know
the effect that it has had on each of the Territories yet, to
be honest with you, because it is hard to quantify, but that perception
alone is what gave us a problem in the international arena.
I want to say that with these assurances, I
think that part of our constitutional arrangements which we will
now seek to make will have to deal with matters like that. I am
sure that you know now that what obtains is whatever these international
treaties are, they are simply forwarded on to us, at will. London
has said to us—I am sure that it has said it to all of us—that
it will do their best to have discussions about these matters
prior to it. I am not saying that the end results will change,
but at least if we have an option to make representation, we might
be able to massage the situation to allow for a better end result
for us. I am hopeful that that will continue. I cannot say for
sure at this point because we have not experienced many instances
since the last blow-up, if I may call it that.
Q18 Chairman: Mr. O'Neal, do you
have anything to add on the question of consultation about treaties?
Ralph O'Neal: Only that we were
displeased about how that was done. However, it was done, so we
just have to make sure that we follow the regulations, keep in
step with what is happening and provide the necessary human resources
to ensure that those things are carried out. However, we are also
aware that next year they will come up with something else, and
the year after that. It will be a continuum, but we will try our
best to fight against this disease.
Q19 Andrew Mackinlay: Do you have
belongers in your Territories?
Kurt Tibbetts: Yes, we do.
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