Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
COUNCILLOR MIKE
SUMMERS, OBE, LESLIE
JAQUES OBE AND
THE HON
BRIAN W. ISAAC
MLC
3 DECEMBER 2007
Q40 Andrew Mackinlay: I have a question
which I should have asked previous witnesses and which I might
put to others. Even small jurisdictions have to replicate domestically
a whole host of legislation because of international treaties—treaties
perhaps entered into by the United Kingdom. I want to understand
the logistics of that and how you keep abreast of matters. It
was touched on by the other folk. Although you are not a member
of the European Union, things might happen consequent on the United
Kingdom's membership of the EU. When it comes to Pitcairn, how
do you possibly legislate? A few years ago, even Gibraltar, with
all its sophistication, was literally a factory of legislation.
It has overcome such problems now and is keeping abreast of such
demands. Is it a problem?
Leslie Jaques: It is not now.
Perhaps there was a lack of communication on such matters. Our
current Governor is very keen on devolving responsibility and
working with the Island Council. There were some treaties to which
we had signed up that we were not advised of, but that was a while
ago. There is now a consultation process and very good communication
between the Pitcairn Islands and the FCO.
Mike Summers: It certainly can
be a problem for us. Given that our Legislative Council is responsible
for passing the legislation and that our institutions are responsible
for drafting it, there can be significant problems on occasions.
They tend to arise out of the application of international law
to the Falklands. Often, they are things that we could not reasonably
object to, and that we would wish to do, but sometimes the sheer
volume of what is required is just not possible. On those occasions,
we tend to respond to the Foreign Office and say, "We would
like to co-operate on this issue, but the sheer volume of the
existing legislation that has to be checked and the new legislation
that it requires makes it impossible for us to do."
Brian W. Isaac: The international
treaty does not affect St. Helena as much as other overseas treaties.
Any treaty that needs legislation will be discussed, drafted and
put in place, but the majority of the international treaties do
not have a direct impact on St. Helena.
Q41 Chairman: Mr. Isaac, may I take
you on to some difficult constitutional issues? Without going
into the history, the situation in St. Helena has become rather
difficult constitutionally has it not? Why do you believe that
the idea of ministerial government was rejected by the voters?
Brian W. Isaac: I find it difficult
to answer that, but from the consultative poll the wishes of the
people were for constitutional reform. Currently, the people of
the island feel that we need to have constitutional reform, and
that is on the agenda.
Q42 Chairman: So do you think that
we are likely to revisit the issue as a whole, or is it going
to be cherry-picked?
Brian W. Isaac: I think the wishes
are to review the whole constitution, and a lot of work has been
undertaken on that process. I think that people have realised
the need for it, and hopefully within the next two years it will
be very high on the agenda.
Q43 Chairman: Can you tell us what
is happening on Ascension Island, because it is even more difficult
there, is it not?
Brian W. Isaac: Yes. As elected
members of St. Helena's Legislative Council, we do not have any
autonomy over Ascension Island. Ascension Island and Tristan da
Cunha are the sole responsibility of the Governor.
Q44 Chairman: But they are dependencies
of St. Helena?
Brian W. Isaac: Yes, they are,
but we have very little working relationship with Ascension Island
from the legislative side.
Q45 Chairman: So that is really a
matter for us to address with the Governor, not with you.
Brian W. Isaac: Yes.
Q46 Sir John Stanley: We are, of
course, aware that there is a significant number of St. Helenans
employed on Ascension Island. Do you feel that their interests
and rights have been adequately safeguarded?
Brian W. Isaac: As I said, I have
very little involvement with Ascension Island, and the employment
of St. Helenans on the island. Are you speaking of the right of
abode on Ascension Island?
Q47 Sir John Stanley: Yes, and the
terms and conditions of employment.
Brian W. Isaac: I have very little
involvement with the rights of employment on Ascension Island.
Q48 Chairman: At the moment, there
are offices and UK representatives for the Overseas Territories.
Do you think that it would be a sensible idea if the dependencies—Ascension
Island and Tristan da Cunha—had their own UK representatives?
Brian W. Isaac: Again, it is very
difficult for me to answer that, because of the relationship with
Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha. St. Helena has its representative
here in London, who has a very good working relationship with
the island. But it is for the Ascension Island Government to take
this matter forward.
Q49 Chairman: But the people living
there are not actually represented in any real sense by St. Helena's
representative in the UK?
Brian W. Isaac: No.
Q50 Chairman: Thank you. That is
important.
Mr. Summers, you have been involved in the constitutional
reform process as well. When do you think that these proposals,
which I understand have not been very controversial, are going
to be implemented?
Mike Summers: We hope that they
will be implemented during next year. I will be able to tell you
after next week whether or not they are controversial, because
we have a delegation visiting from the Foreign Office for the
first round of negotiations. There has been no response so far
from the Foreign Office on the report, so we do not know which
parts of the report they take issue with, and which ones they
do not. We will know that after next week. I certainly hope that
the new constitution could be in place in 2008.
Q51 Chairman: Thank you.
Mr. Jaques, you come to your role at a rather
difficult time historically. Can I ask you about your assessment
of the impact of Operation Unique on Pitcairn? Has the community
been given sufficient support since those difficult times, particularly
with regard to child protection issues, and also in terms of local
involvement? I understand that there have been consultations on
human rights issues. Could you give us a sense of where that process
is at the moment?
Leslie Jaques: I do not know how
unique Operation Unique was, because this sort of thing happens
all over the world, but it happened on Pitcairn in a rather dramatic
way. I was not there at the time—I came in subsequent to
the trial process. None of us can right the wrongs or turn back
the clock. All that we can do is work to build a better tomorrow,
which we are doing on the back of economic changes and changes
to the structure of the Government.
With regard to help for people after Operation
Unique, we have had social workers on the island and community
police. Obviously, there is a significant impact on a small community
when half a dozen of its members go to prison. We do a lot more
in terms of working with the community on consultation and communication.
Could we have done more? We could possibly have done more for
people after the trial process. I do not think that people realised
the significant impact there would be after the trials. It is
a very small community, so it is divided and hurting on both sides.
The healing process and the reconciliation process will take time.
We are having to park that and work together for the common good.
There are lots of small projects that are bringing the community
on the island together. I am confident that, in the fullness of
time, we will bring them back together again.
Q52 Chairman: You refer to small
projects. Does that include projects that are funded by the Department
for International Development?
Leslie Jaques: Yes, it does.
Q53 Chairman: How is that co-operation
with the Foreign Office going?
Leslie Jaques: It is going very
well. Again, as you have said, governance with any kind of personnel
depends upon the people. We have been very fortunate with the
Foreign Office people that we have had at every level, and the
DFID people. They work closely together, come to the island and
work with the community. DFID has been superb in terms of the
infrastructure support that it has given us.
Q54 Chairman: Mr. Isaac, your Territories—St.
Helena and the other dependencies—also receive budgetary
support from the UK Government. How does that work in practice?
Are you content with the amount of support? Is it enough and is
it the right kind?
Brian W. Isaac: There is always
room for more budgetary support from Britain. Currently, we are
in the process of increasing tariffs, which is very difficult
because we have a low tax base on the island. We have people leaving
the island, which puts a further burden on those who remain. At
the moment, we are at a sort of balance, but have the opportunity
of more support from Britain with the approach of air access for
the island, hopefully. All the work that has been carried out
on the island with regard to infrastructure development will require
more support from Britain. DFID is very favourable towards that
development and we look forward to the continued support in that
field.
Q55 Chairman: You said "air
access, hopefully." Was that a deliberate choice of words
or does it mean that you are rather sceptical that the timetable
that has been outlined will be met?
Brian W. Isaac: I am very hopeful
that the airport proposal will materialise, as it will benefit
the island. It will also benefit Britain, with regard to aid and
helping the island to move to being more self-sufficient. At the
moment, I am not sure where the process lies. We are waiting on
the outcome of the tendering process. From that stage on, it will
be the main objective to work towards.
Q56 Chairman: But the National Audit
Office said that even with financial support and leadership from
the Department for International Development, the impact would
be insufficient to stop St. Helena being dependent upon UK budgetary
assistance and that you would need other investment. Are you confident
that that will happen?
Brian W. Isaac: Yes, I feel confident
that that will happen.
Q57 Chairman: Okay. And we are talking
about 2012 or 2013 as the target date?
Brian W. Isaac: Yes.
Q58 Chairman: That has not slipped?
Brian W. Isaac: It still remains
2012.
Q59 Sir John Stanley: Councillor
Summers, are the Falkland Islands government content with the
current defence posture on the Falkland Islands adopted by the
British Government?
Mike Summers: Yes. We are briefed
on a reasonably regular basis by the commander of British forces
for the south Atlantic islands and get a number of high- level
visitors from all parts of the UK defence institutions. Our understanding
of the defence posture of the UK and how it will work in an emergency
leads us to believe that it is satisfactory. However, we are not
defence experts and have to believe what we are told, to an extent.
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