Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-175)
MR. LOUIS
OLIVIER BANCOULT
AND MR.
RICHARD GIFFORD
23 JANUARY 2008
Q160 Chairman: Because you have to
pay for a passport?
Mr. Bancoult: Yes. We think that
there should be a special desk for Chagossians to assist them
in all their needs. For example, we should have detailed guidance.
Q161 Chairman: Are you talking about
a special desk in the UK or in Mauritius?
Mr. Bancoult: In Mauritius. Most
Chagossian natives there are facing health problems, because most
of them are more than 60 years old. They should be treated as
a special case. There are arrangements for a crisis in other Overseas
Territories. The same applies to training, which is not available
for young Chagossians. We are alone; we have been orphaned. No
one cares for us. We should receive the same treatment as other
British subjects and UK citizens.
Q162 Chairman: Taking up Sandra's
question about habitual residence tests and benefits, are there
still people coming from your community in Mauritius to settle
in the UK? Roughly how many?
Mr. Bancoult: About 1,000 people.
Q163 Chairman: At what rate are people
still coming to the UK?
Mr. Bancoult: Most of the Chagossians
are still in Mauritius. There are about 1,000 to 1,100 of them.
Q164 Chairman: In an average week,
are three, four or five people wanting to move from Mauritius
to the UK?
Mr. Bancoult: That depends. If
we had the ambition, the national test could be removed. Our case
is very different. If we have to wait six months or more, our
position will become very dangerous and difficult.
Q165 Chairman: When there was, for
example, the volcanic eruption in Montserrat, the British Government
took special steps to allow people from Montserrat to come to
the UK without having to go through those difficulties with benefits
at the start. I had constituents who were in those circumstances.
Initially, there were obstacles, but then some MPs took up the
case and it was sorted out very quickly. Those people did not
have those difficulties. Can we quantify numbers to determine
how we should pursue the issue and try to assist people in a particular
way in this country?
Mr. Bancoult: If that can be done,
that would help, because many people who choose to come here face
that problem. They must be treated in a humanitarian way. They
are ready to go back home.
Q166 Chairman: So they do not want
to live here or in Mauritius. They want to live in their home.
Mr. Bancoult: Yes. We are waiting
for our rights to be restored, and we will return home.
Q167 Mr. Keetch: May I ask a few
questions about the sovereignty dispute with Mauritius? We are
told that the UK has given an undertaking that we would cede the
Chagos Islands to Mauritius if at any point they ceased to be
of military importance. Is that right? Has such an undertaking
been given?
Mr. Gifford: Yes. It was an undertaking
given at the time by the Wilson Government and repeated subsequently
by the Thatcher Government to retrocede the Chagos Islands when
they are no longer required for defence purposes.
Q168 Mr. Keetch: The President of
Mauritius has said that he would be prepared to leave the Commonwealth
to pursue his claim to the islands. How far do you think the Mauritian
Government would go to try to rest their claim? Do you believe
that they might take it to the International Court?
Mr. Gifford: Yes. The Mauritian
Government are very much wedded to the idea of sovereignty. They
take the view that "We was robbed". They believe that
Mauritius was regarded as an inferior, non-independent country.
It was worried about negotiating the terms of its independence
at the time, and it had its arm twisted, so it was in a lower
bargaining position and it was not true consent when it agreed,
in return for £3 million, to cede the islands to Britain.
There is no doubt that successive Mauritian Governments have tried
very hard in a number of ways to persuade the Government to return
the islands, and they would love to get a case off the ground
in the International Court of Justice, if only they could find
the jurisdiction to do it. They believe they have a strong legal
case. Unfortunately, jurisdiction is lacking in the absence of
consent, and the manoeuvre that you mentioned—seceding from
the Commonwealth—was plugged the same day by the Foreign
Office when it filed an amended consent to jurisdiction that excluded
former members of the Commonwealth. It quickly cut that out on
the same day that it arose.
Q169 Mr. Keetch: Presumably the Mauritian
Government would support the resettlement of the Chagos people
too?
Mr. Gifford: It is very interesting.
Past Governments have been hostile to the Chagossians' claims.
I was told by a Foreign Minister in a previous Government that
they could not in any way support the islanders' claims against
the British Government, because that would be asserting their
rights under the British constitution and would somehow compromise
Mauritius's claim to sovereignty of the islands. However, I am
very happy to say that they have a much more enlightened Prime
Minister at the moment and he has made supportive public statements.
After the recent victory in the Court of Appeal, he went on record
as saying that the interests of the Mauritian people, the Chagossian
people and the Mauritian Government were now complementary and
they could march forward together. So I think that, as soon as
Mauritius realises the commercial benefits that will come to it
from re-establishing the economy of the islands, Mauritius will
be quite helpful and positive.
Q170 Mr. Keetch: Presumably, it is
about time that we started asking the people of Chagos themselves
what they want. What is the general view of your people? Would
you rather return to the islands and they were, say, a British
overseas territory, or would you like to see them become part
of Mauritius?
Mr. Bancoult: The most important
thing for us as a people is to give preference to our fundamental
rights, because, as far as sovereignty is concerned, that is an
issue between two Governments. We do not want to just be concerned
by sovereignty. It is a political motor, but the most important
thing is our fundamental rights, to be able to return to our homeland
and to have everything done so as to let the island develop.
Q171 Mr. Keetch: With respect, a
British Government might well say, "Well, look, we would
quite like to know what is going to happen? If we fund your return
to the islands and we start helping you to do that, are you going
to turn round in six months and say, right, we want to leave the
British Overseas Territories and join Mauritius?" Surely,
that is a legitimate question for us to ask? What is your view?
Mr. Bancoult: In the past, all
decisions were taken without consultation of the Chagossians.
The wish of our people is that we would not like any decision
to be taken without consultation.
Q172 Mr. Keetch: If the people were
consulted, what is your gut feeling about what their answer would
be? Would they want to become Mauritian, or would they want to
stay as part of a British Overseas Territory?
Mr. Bancoult: Frankly, most of
us want to stay British.
Q173 Andrew Mackinlay: Assuming that
this wrong could be remedied, as it were, has there been adequate
work about these islands and atolls—to the extent that one
can do such work—as to what will happen in the next 100
years? What are the problems with sea levels rising, and that
sort of thing? I hesitate to ask the question, but unfortunately
the world is as it is, is it not? We have just heard from people
in Tuvalu, and other places that have been hit by rising sea waters,
so I ask the question.
Mr. Gifford: If you read the Government's
feasibility studies, they do not say anything specific about that
issue; they just talk about a general lack of evidence. However,
I believe that the general understanding is that nothing serious
is going to happen for about 100 years and an awful lot depends
on what measures can be adopted in the meantime. Coral islands
are not fixed like granite; they have the capacity to breathe
and move. These are the finest corals in the world so the prospects
are not bad. My consultant tells me that these islands are better
placed than most coral atolls to resist global warming and rising
sea levels. I cannot be very specific as it is so complex, but
we know that the Americans are investing millions of dollars in
shelters, so they are not planning to evacuate at any time soon.
Q174 Andrew Mackinlay: Have you investigated
the territories' status vis-a"-vis the European Union? Gibraltar,
for instance, is in the European Union; the islands that are closest,
the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, are not, and neither
are the Overseas Territories in the Caribbean, but they have a
special relationship. Does the European Union have any legal jurisdiction
over these lands or is there a void in that respect?
Mr. Gifford: They are one of the
Overseas Territories recognised by the European Union. The people
are all British citizens, who have the right of movement throughout
Europe. They do not have any right to assert their own identity
in the European Union because everything has to go through the
Government. They are a kind of NGO without a voice. We have attended
EU-ACP meetings and been tolerated outsiders. A certain amount
of interest has been expressed, but the Chagossians have no official
status.
Q175 Chairman: May I take you back
to the environmental question? We have taken evidence in which
people have told us that one of the perverse advantages of the
situation that has developed is that there is an area where the
natural environment has developed because there is no human habitation.
Consequently, there are rare species and damage could be caused
to the area if people were to move back there. What is your reaction
to that evidence? Mr. Bancoult, what do you feel about that?
Mr. Bancoult: We were the guardians
of the environment. We always protect our environment; we do not
want to destroy anything. We do not see how people can say that
we will damage it. Of course we will look after it.
Mr. Gifford:: Consultation is
beginning between our resettlement team and the Chagos Conservation
Trust. A joint plan is evolving to pursue the Chagos Management
Plan that has been adopted and to train Chagossians as conservation
guardians. I think it is accepted on all sides that that could
be a benefit.
Chairman: Thank you. As there are no
more questions we have come to the end of our session. I thank
both of you for coming along this afternoon. It has been very
useful for us as it has given us a completely different perspective
on Overseas Territories. As you know, some of the Overseas Territories
have lots of sheep and few people, some have larger numbers of
people, and your islands have a particular history. We hope at
some point they will also have people resident there who can act
as guardians of the environment.
Mr. Bancoult: May I thank you
for allowing me to speak on behalf of my community? It has been
a pleasure to explain our wish to return to our homeland.
Chairman: Thank you.
| 
