Examination of Witnesses (Quesitons 40-56)
MR JACK
MCCONNELL
MSP
23 APRIL 2008
Q40 Mr. Keetch: You mentioned that
when you were First Minister you had connections with embassies
and other high commissioners all over the world. Did you imagine
then that you would one day be doing that role? Is it something
that you thought about? Some of us on the Committee would like
to think of ourselves as future ambassadors, high commissioners
or governors. Did you ever think when you were First Minister
that this might be a future career path that you might go down?
Mr. McConnell: No.
Q41 Mr. Keetch: So you have never
had any ambition to go into this area.
Mr. McConnell: No.
Q42 Mr. Keetch: So the request by
the Prime Minister to do this came totally out of the blue.
Mr. McConnell: Yes.
Mr. Keetch: Thank you.
Q43 Mr. Horam: To come back to an
answer that you gave Sir John Stanley in relation to when you
might take over, I got an impression that there might be certain
circumstances in which you would not take over. You talked about
different skill sets and different sets of circumstances.
Mr. McConnell: I was trying to
be helpful to the Committee in saying that I understand why the
Foreign Office neither in private—we have not yet agreed
anything in private that I am not telling you—nor in public
would want to be specific about a starting date. First, that is
because there is an incumbent who must have the full authority
of the position in the meantime. This is an unusual position with
the successor being named. It is important that Richard Wildash,
who is in position there, retains his full authority until the
end of his posting. Secondly, the starting date should be determined
by the interests of the British Government, not by my interests
or the Labour party's interests in the Scottish Parliament.
Q44 Mr. Horam: Surely it would not
be in the interests of the British Government to have a period
of vacancy with nobody there. The incumbent's period of office
is coming to an end in January next year. Surely the Government
would not want there to be an interlude when nobody is there.
Mr. McConnell: I cannot speak
for the head of the diplomatic service, but I am simply indicating
to the Committee that I can understand why the starting date of
a successor is not announced publicly too far in advance of the
existing incumbent relinquishing their position.
Q45 Mr. Horam: I find that hard to
understand, given that you have been nominated for this post and
the incumbent is departing in January. All that is known. I am
sure that the authority of the incumbent is not damaged in any
way by the knowledge that you are the successor. I would not have
thought that that would have any effect whatsoever. The only thing
that I can think of is that the Government want some wriggle room
when it comes to holding a by-election. That is the only thing
that I can think might affect the timing of it; otherwise why
would it matter in any way?
Mr. McConnell: I can honestly
say to the Committee that there have been no discussions involving
me. Others can speak for themselves, but there have been no discussions
between me and anybody in the UK Government at ministerial level
about the starting date since my discussion with the Prime Minister
last August. All of my discussions about my terms and conditions
have been conducted with senior officials in the Foreign Office
and they have been conducted very properly. I understand their
reasons for wishing to be hesitant about details.
Q46 Mr. Horam: May I change the subject
totally and come on to Malawi's economic performance? The slightly
worrying thing about Malawi is that while on the one hand it is
getting good reports from the International Monetary Fund about
its economic development programme, the fact is, as you have said
yourself, it is one of the 10 poorest countries in the world.
There have been problems of starvation, crops have failed and
so on in the last few years. That poses quite a challenge, does
it not?
Mr. McConnell: It does. Clearly,
the High Commissioner post is distinct from the position of the
head of DFID in Malawi, who has a large budget. The UK is the
largest donor, therefore, we have a serious interest in how donor
aid is being spent there and in the effectiveness of the various
programmes. My understanding is that the head of DFID in Malawi
and the High Commissioner have a very good and constructive working
relationship, and I would expect that to continue. I have had
a personal and political interest in that area, but obviously
I would respect the position of DFID and the fact that it is a
separate Department, even if we all represent the UK's interests.
More generally, the economic position in Malawi
has improved over the past few years—in the past two years
it has seen growth rates of just over 7%, which is a significant
improvement. Food supply and security in the country has significantly
improved, compared to say 2003 or 2004, but the problems remain
significant. It is still the case that more than 100 out of every
1,000 youngsters will die before the age of five, that life expectancy
in the country is averaging 37 years—while in this country
it is 79—and it has gone down, and 14% of the population
are affected by HIV/AIDS, which is coming down slightly but is
still a horrendously high figure. The development challenges in
Malawi are massive, but it is a friendly country for the United
Kingdom, and we are for Malawi. I would hope that, in the position
of high commissioner, I can help Malawi. Ultimately, it needs
to grow its own economy and be sustainable—it need not be
dependent, in the way that it is currently. I think that I have
a knowledge of the country that might be helpful to support it
moving in that direction.
Q47 Mr. Horam: DFID, as part of the
UK Government's presence there, and the international aid programme
are such a large element for a country such as Malawi. That is
a slightly unusual position by comparison with other countries.
How does that affect what you see as your role as the putative
high commissioner? Does that not box you in a bit, when so much
is being decided by DFID?
Mr. McConnell: I think it would
be honest to say that that is one of the things that I thought
about last summer, when I was asked to consider taking on the
position. I think that the programme budget of the High Commissioner
in Malawi is about £700,000 or so. The budget of DFID in
Malawi is £70 million or so. It is a huge differential. Clearly,
the significance of DFID's support for the country is felt by
the Government there and by everyone involved. Having spoken to
the High Commissioner and to the head of DFID in the country,
I am struck by the very close working relationship that they have.
As High Commissioner, despite my interest in development activities
in the past, I would entirely respect the position of the head
of DFID in the country. I have no doubt that we would have a constructive
working relationship, having explored some of the issues with
the current incumbents.
Q48 Ms Stuart: I have to confess
that the more that I think about the time gap between the Prime
Minister's announcement of you being the successor and the likelihood
of you taking it up, the more puzzled I am by it. It is really
quite extraordinary. Do you think that the Government need to
explain why they made such an exception? I genuinely assumed that
you had either already taken up the post or were about to, so
there we are.
I want to ask you something quite specific.
You mentioned the high percentage of the population who are HIV
positive. I think that there are something like two trained doctors
per 100,000 of the population, which is something like the lowest
rate. Earlier you mentioned St. Andrews and Birmingham Universities—I
think that the other is Manchester—which do the training
together. Could you say a little more on your thoughts? How can
you do more work to help Malawi to get out of what is a vicious
trap, involving the absence of doctors and nurses and the high
incidence of HIV?
Mr. McConnell: I have a strong
view that, while donor aid—budget support—for developing
countries, particularly those as poor as Malawi, is important
for fairness and development in the world, in many ways one of
the more significant things that we can do, not just in Scotland
but across the UK, is develop the skills inside such countries,
which allows them to develop their own sustainable public services
and a sustainable growing economy. It is all very well donating
budget support or having people from this country volunteer to
spend some time in Malawi and give their skills, which is useful
but short term. However, unless we use the skills that we have
developed over hundreds of years we are not creating the sort
of sustainable development that will make a long-term difference.
For example, in addition to the short-term benefits
of teachers going to a country such as Malawi and spending time
in classrooms to help to deal with teacher shortages, you have
to increase the number of teachers in training, increase the salaries
to keep them in the country, give them houses in the rural areas
so that they will want to teach in schools in those areas, and
ensure that the classrooms are fulfilling environments so that
they want to stay in teaching. You also have to make sure that
the teachers do not catch HIV, otherwise they will no longer be
there. All those things are linked.
The skills that we can provide in training are,
if anything, at least as important as the budget support we provide.
There are many examples of that, not just in Scotland but across
the UK. I am aware, for example, of medics from across Scotland
who are spending time in Malawi training epilepsy nurses. Epilepsy
is a huge problem in the country—a killer. That may be surprising,
but it is true. There are anaesthetists from across the UK spending
their vacations in Malawi and training people in anaesthetics,
which again is saving lives. They are leaving the skills there
and training the trainers, who then train others. That is a very
productive and practical level of support.
Q49 Ms Stuart: Given that you have
a moment to reflect, and to look at what is happening not just
in Malawi, do you think that there are any African Governments
successfully providing services on the ground to deal with HIV
in their countries? Is there an African model that could be copied
in Malawi?
Mr. McConnell: There are different
successes in particular areas in different countries. The scale
of the challenge makes a countrywide solution that is immediately
and obviously successful difficult to achieve. Even in Malawi,
in spite of the extent of the poverty and the lack of development,
there are examples of educational and health services that are
significantly improved on where they were three or four years
ago. I was there a fortnight ago and could see a difference in
some of the areas that I visited in May 2005. So, it is possible
to demonstrate improvement, and that is true in other countries
as well. The scale of the challenge is still a significant barrier
to countrywide solutions making a real difference.
Q50 Mr. Hamilton: Some years ago,
Malawi was notorious for its endemic corruption. How has corruption
been tackled since UK aid was suspended, and has it been tackled
effectively?
Mr. McConnell: The current President
has been very public in his condemnation of corruption and his
determination to root it out. I have never had a reason to doubt
his commitment to that. He has spoken publicly about it in the
UK, Malawi and elsewhere. The anti-corruption bureau is taking
action against former senior politicians—one was recently
sentenced to a significant jail term with hard labour. Action
is definitely taking place. As ever with these issues there is
a challenge for the prosecution to prove the case, but there is
determination in the country to tackle the issue, not just because
it is the right thing inside Malawi, but because it builds international
confidence.
Q51 Mr. Hamilton: We all remember
the regime of Hastings Banda and the one-party state that was
once imposed upon Malawi. How deep rooted is Malawian democracy,
and is there any prospect of another Hastings Banda trying to
take over power?
Mr. McConnell: There are difficulties
that exist even today in Parliament as a result of the dispute
over section 65 of the constitution, and the interpretation about
whether Members of the Parliament can cross the Floor to another
party. As I understand it, the Parliament will meet again next
Monday—it has not met for some time but it will meet on
Monday and discuss a number of Bills and the budget for next year.
Despite that, I sense a commitment among Malawian parliamentarians
to having a strong parliamentary democracy with an independent
judiciary and so on. They are faced constantly with the challenge
of working in that system, at the same time as dealing with the
scale of poverty and the country's development challenges. They
need to secure economic growth and that is presumably an issue
that many sub-Saharan African countries wrestle with. The commitment
to democracy is deep rooted but the capacity of the systems in
Malawi needs support. The capacity of the civil service, of the
judicial system, of civil society and the media—all the
things that make up a strong democracy—need support.
Q52 Mr. Hamilton: Is there real freedom
of speech and free media?
Mr. McConnell: I think that yes,
there is freedom of speech and a free media, perhaps more than
elsewhere. However, at the same time, British Government support
for governance programmes there, which is mainly delivered through
the high commission but partly through DFID, is very important.
Even in Scotland, we were sending over parliamentary clerks to
help build the capacity inside Parliament, or sending over people
from the court service in Scotland to help and carry out training
to build capacity in the court service in Malawi. Support for
improved governance is an essential part of Britain's support
for Malawi. It is accepted as something that Malawi needs and
wants to see happen.
Mr. Hamilton: Thank you.
Chairman: We have a few minutes left,
as we are conscious that there is a vote in about 10 minutes,
so we will try and conclude before then.
Q53 Sir John Stanley: Mr. McConnell,
as you know, leaving any religious considerations aside, there
is an absolute correlation between the extent to which a country
is impoverished, and whether or not girls and young women have
educational opportunities. In a country like Malawi, the strong
tendency among the great majority of families, particularly in
rural areas, is that girls are sent out into the fields or made
to look after the toddlers in the family home rather than sent
to school. If you were in post now as High Commissioner, what
would you do to help the Government give fair educational rights
to girls and young women?
Mr. McConnell: The education service
in Malawi faces huge challenges, partly as a result of decisions
back in 1994 to provide universal free education for all primary-aged
children—boys and girls—slightly ahead of most of
the rest of Africa. The problem was that that legislation was
not thought through and financed, and the system could not cope.
The education service has had a serious problem ever since. By
and large, at primary school level, in relative terms, there is
high attendance among girls as well as boys, but that changes
significantly at secondary school level, partly for the reasons
that you mentioned. It is also affected, for example, by sanitation
and toilet facilities in schools, the lack of which is a major
disincentive for girls to go to school after the age of 10 or
11. Successive Education Ministers whom I have dealt with in Malawi
have mentioned that as a particular problem. It is about building
not only school classrooms, but school toilets. Decent facilities
would make a significant difference to the attendance of teenage
girls.
In that area, perhaps my experience in education
might be of use. A high commissioner would not normally be directly
involved in that area, but I would certainly have a good relationship
with Malawian Education Ministers and with the President, who
is technically the Education Minister. I would hope that my experience
could be useful to help ensure support and guidance, and perhaps
also, as you say, to promote a change of culture.
Q54 Sir John Stanley: I turn to another
key policy issue: at the Inter-Parliamentary Union's annual assembly,
which I was able to attend last week in South Africa, President
Thabo Mbeki cut an extremely isolated figure, not least after
making his extraordinary public statements that there was no crisis
in Zimbabwe. As you may have seen, the African nations last week
were almost unanimous in asking President Mbeki to stand down
as their mediator with President Mugabe, and in proposing that
that role be taken on by the Zambian President. If you were in
post now, what would you ask the Malawian Government to do in
relation to the deeply serious crisis in Zimbabwe?
Mr. McConnell: I would ask the
Malawian Government to do whatever the British Government asked
me to ask them to do, I suppose. Technically, that would be my
position. I am there to represent the British Government and their
view would need to be passed on to the Malawian Government. In
relation to the current position, both publicly and privately,
the Malawian Government have made it very clear that the original
election results in Zimbabwe should be properly published, and
that that should have been done speedily, and the results respected.
They have been quite consistent in that view.
Q55 Sir John Stanley: As you are
not in post now, and therefore not corralled by Her Majesty's
Government's view, what are your own views as to how we can try
to restore democracy in Zimbabwe?
Mr. McConnell: I share the Foreign
Secretary's view, and I suspect that it is probably shared by
all parties. I have not followed exactly the debates that have
taken place here on the matter. However, the Foreign Secretary
said in a statement on Monday that the British Government wanted
to see the original election results published and respected,
and that we wanted African leaders in the region to exert pressure,
and take on their role with confidence to ensure that the Zimbabwean
Government respected the democratic process. That makes a lot
of sense. I think that the more experienced leaders, as well as
the emerging leaderships of the countries in the region are serious
about that. The Southern African Development Community statement
last week showed that they wanted the democratic process to be
properly respected across all the countries of the region, including
Zimbabwe. They were willing to state that clearly.
Q56 Chairman: May I ask you one final
question that relates to the big change that is happening in Africa
concerning the Chinese role? For many years, Malawi was one of
those southern African countries—there were others—that
had diplomatic relations with Taiwan. At the end of last year,
it broke those relations and established links with China. I have
seen a report in which the Voice of America quoted the Chinese
chargéd'affaires as saying that "his office is tired
of too many individuals, non-governmental organisations and government
departments thronging its offices with begging bowls". Clearly,
the Chinese are now there and they have come with a large amount
of potential investment. They are purchasing raw materials and
providing money for Malawi. Do you see your role as, in effect,
one of ensuring that Malawi maintains its Commonwealth orientation
and its historical links with this country when there are other
players in the region?
Mr. McConnell: I certainly see
the role of the High Commissioner as one of ensuring a continuation
of Malawi's very strong affinity and relationship not only with
Scotland, but with Britain as a whole. Who the Malawian Government
chose to recognise in diplomatic terms is obviously a matter for
them. Britain respected Malawi's relationship with Taiwan over
the many years that that was in place, and when Malawi was one
of the most outspoken supporters of Taiwanese recognition. We
respect their right to change that position, as they did over
the winter, and strike an agreement with the Chinese Government.
I hope that whatever happens now inside Malawi is positive and
productive for the Malawians, but I do not think that it will
have any bearing either on our diplomatic relationship or on the
friendship between the people of Malawi and the people of the
UK.
Chairman: Thank you very much. We are
very grateful to you for coming today, as we have found it a valuable
experience. I am not sure when we will next be doing this, as
it is not entirely in our hands—in that sense it is probably
a bit like the start date of your appointment. We wish you all
the best of luck for the future.
Mr. McConnell: Thank you. It has
been a pleasure.
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