Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 32)
TUESDAY 22 JANUARY 2008
CHIEF CONSTABLE
BRIAN MOORE
AND MS
JUDE WATSON
Q20 Gwyn Prosser: That is very encouraging
news. What are the barriers to rolling that out right across the
country?
Ms Watson: I think the barriers
are capacity at the centre and also locally. We have about four
officials part of whose job is to oversee the national domestic
violence programme for specialist courts. At the moment we have
64 courts. Today I have brought with me literally a suitcase for
my meeting after this hearing with 60 applications from other
court systems to set up specialist courts. If those applications
are successful the overwhelming majority of areas within the country
will be covered. Obviously, with 300 magistrates courts that will
still cover about 120 of them. What we are trying to look at is
how we mainstream this in a situation where from the centre we
do not have enough resources to expand it. Locally, where we are
looking at the independent domestic violence support systems for
victims and the MARACs we also need more funding to support that.
Therefore, there is an issue about funding, so we are planning
to look at options for mainstreaming that link into what is happening
through crime and disorder partnerships and local criminal justice
boards. There is a possibility of using both systems to mainstream
these specialist courts throughout the country. Those are our
tasks for the coming year. That relates to just magistrates' courts.
Another question is what we need to look at in terms of crown
and youth courts. We have not begun to look at that, but we are
aware that we need to consider that.
Gwyn Prosser: Your enthusiasm has infected
the Committee. I am sure that your input will find its way into
our final report.
Q21 Mr Streeter: You mentioned 6,000
victims, test cases and so on, which is very interesting, but
can you just give a picture of what is going on? How many of those
6,000 would have been male victims?
Ms Watson: I do not have the actual
statistics with me in terms of the proportion. Nationally, however,
across all domestic violence cases we monitor that. We find that
89% of victims where the cases are prosecuted are women, so male
victims feature in just over 10% of cases. Obviously, our policy
addresses any victim or defendant in a way that is appropriate.
Q22 Margaret Moran: To pick up your
reference to the crown and youth courts, would it be possible
to receive a note about that? I think that is very often missed
in the discussions and it would be a shame to lose track of that.
In terms of the rate of attrition, you are dealing with a very
small percentage of a very small percentage. Do you give guidance,
or how do you work with the rest of the food chain, as it were,
in tackling that problem of attrition?
Ms Watson: As prosecutors we operate
within the local domestic violence fora where obviously we work
with the police, the courts, local agencies such as housing, health
and so on, so hopefully we are part of the picture that looks
at the criminal and non-criminal justice system. Within the criminal
justice system obviously we work very closely with others. Over
the past few years we and the police have developed what are called
Centrex training modules wherein we train the police and the prosecutors
under the same programme that is adapted only for the different
jobs, but there is the same awareness training and training in
terms of what evidence should be gathered, etc. The good news
from the prosecution service is that when we started to monitor
the situation in 2004-05 there were only about 35,000 cases per
year being prosecuted. In the first year that went up 43% in terms
of the volume of cases as well as the success rates going up from
55% to 60% in the first year. Therefore, we had a volume increase
as well as a successful outcome increase. In the second year that
has gone up by a further 15% of cases coming through and this
year we predict a further 10% of cases going through. When we
have looked at data across the police and ourselves we have seen
a very slow but definite improvement in terms of the number of
cases being reported and then prosecuted. Obviously, very many
of the incidents that come to the police may not be of a criminal
nature, so we will be dealing with the criminal cases.
Q23 Mr Davies: How many of the victims
or perpetrators of domestic violence are under the age of 18?
Ms Watson: We have data from just
the first and second quarters in this year. Adult-to-adult domestic
violence cases make up 93%, which is just under 20,000 cases.
Adult-to-youth cases are about 500, youth-to-adult are just over
1,000 and youth-to-youth—those would be under 18—were
only 22.[1]
But we must note that these are cases wherein we have had the
information recorded. Part of it is recorded by looking at child
abuse issues as well as domestic violence. This may not be very
robust data yet, but it is the beginning of an indication.
Q24 Mr Davies: It is really the absolute
minimum?
Ms Watson: It is a very small
number in terms of prosecutions, but what we would like to note
is that there may be many cases that come to the notice of the
police that are not getting to the point of charge.
Q25 Chairman: Mr Moore, do you want
to add something?
Chief Constable Moore: Mr Davies
raises an important issue. The operating definition to which the
majority of agencies work specifically excludes people who are
under 18. In effect, there is a gap. People under 18 who are the
subject of domestic abuse do not exist in terms of gathering statistics
across many agencies, with the probable exception of the CPS.
I had a look at this locally in my force and during the past year
just under 12% of victims of domestic abuse were under the age
of 18. That is a significant number, but the implications are
that we do not have youth justice provision and do not have trained
advocates in youth courts to handle this, so it is more than just
changing the definition. There is something of a service provision
gap which in my written submission I suggest is worth discussing
more broadly with government.
Chairman: Ms Watson, it would be very
helpful if you would let us have the note to which Margaret Moran
referred.
Q26 Margaret Moran: In terms of data,
is any of the youth information to which you have referred broken
down into ethnicity so we can be assured that there is a similar
or appropriate service across different communities? You do not
need to do that right now, but if you can provide it in writing
it would be very helpful.
Ms Watson: We do record by ethnicity,
disability and religion.
Mr Davies: That raises quite a few questions
and I do not have the time to ask them now, but I should like
to have a wider note about that. For example, there are 1,000
cases of youths assaulting adults. I wonder what all of this is
about and whether there is perhaps a bigger picture here of which
you can make us aware in the same note.
Chairman: It would be very helpful if
you could make your note as long and as wide as possible to cover
all of the points. If we have missed out anything we shall write
to you after this meeting to pick up those issues.
Q27 Mrs Dean: Ms Watson, you have
given us very good evidence of improvements in multi-agency working
and some ways in which that can be improved. Is there anything
else you want to say about where better cross-government and multi-agency
working is still needed?
Ms Watson: Currently, we work
across government through the domestic violence virtual unit which
reports to an inter-ministerial group. That is one of the ways
wherein we try to link across all the government departments at
national level. In terms of the specialist domestic violence courts
we work in a multi-agency way across government, and we also have
an expert panel which means we have a lot of advice from the voluntary
as well as the statutory sectors. One area that we could look
at is how we can improve that even further across government in
terms of agencies advising government departments. Within the
prosecution service we have always had an external consultative
group that advises on domestic violence work, so we regularly
meet that group which includes a broad range of agencies which
can advise on the policies, guidance and any reports produced,
training and so on. That is something which would be useful across
the breadth of government. At local level we encourage community
engagement whereby our prosecutors work with local community groups.
Domestic violence co-ordinators locally are doing that and in
each of the past two years we have carried out an audit of their
engagement with the local community. One positive change is that
in the first year of the study we found that there were fewer
than 40% of CPS areas working with black and minority ethnic groups
and other diverse groups. That went up to 48% in the second year.
Just before Christmas we did another review and found that it
had gone up to 63%, so there are slow changes in the right direction
to work across agencies, including work with minority groups.
Q28 Mrs Dean: What is your view of
the proposal of the Association of Chief Police Officers for immediate
and automatic referral to civil jurisdiction of cases which do
not meet the standards for criminal prosecution?
Ms Watson: We have just had some
preliminary meetings with ACPO about the possibility of such referrals.
The sections of the new domestic violence legislation that have
not been implemented yet, to which Mr Moore referred, could provide
ways to support and protect victims without necessarily having
to pursue a separate civil procedure route. Pending the implementation
of those sections, however, we have been looking at possible ways
to work together to create more links with the civil jurisdiction
at both national and local level, but those discussions are at
a very early stage.
Q29 Margaret Moran: Referring to
those sections which have not been implemented—what we call
"the Australia model", if you like—where there
can be a prosecution regardless of the views of the victim or
survivor, do you have any data on the number of prosecutions that
do not centre on the testimony of the victim?
Ms Watson: At the present time
the only information we have is that in December of each year
we take a snapshot and from that information we can see the number
of cases that go forward without the victim giving evidence. I
have not brought that information with me today but I can forward
it to the Committee. One of the big changes in CPS in the past
few months is that we have begun to gather information on victim
retractions and what happens to those cases. Next summer we shall
have the first year of data which will be able to tell us, looking
at all these cases, which proportion of victims retracted their
complaint, which proportion continued, which cases were discontinued
and which proportion resulted in guilty pleas from defendants
as soon as they knew what was happening in relation to the victims.
We will have that information across the country next summer,
but currently we have only a snapshot each December. We can however
forward that information to you.
Q30 Chairman: Thank you. Mr Moore,
perhaps I may ask you about the events which will take place tomorrow.
How many of your officers from Wiltshire do you expect to attend
the demonstration?
Chief Constable Moore: I anticipate
that in the order of 50 officers from Wiltshire police will attend.
It is one of the smallest forces in the country and 50 is a very
significant representation of the disquiet that is felt.
Q31 Chairman: What is morale like?
Do people still feel that the Government should pay this award
in full from 1 September?
Chief Constable Moore: Yes, that
is the very clear view. Officers feel that they have been treated
less favourably. They have carefully followed the policy and approach
which they thought had been agreed as the means through arbitration
to reach a pay award and they are significantly disappointed that
that appears to have been breached at the end of the process.
The Association of Chief Police Officers on this occasion shares
that view.
Q32 Chairman: Is there money in the
budget to pay them?
Chief Constable Moore: The money
to pay them is in the budget in my county and elsewhere.
Chairman: I thank both of you very much
for coming. We look forward to receiving your note on the matters
that we have not covered today.
1 Note by witness: Back
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