Examination of Witnesses (Questions 210
- 219)
TUESDAY 19 FEBRUARY 2008
MS JO
TOOD, MR
MARK COULTER
AND MR
BEN JAMAL
Q210 Chairman: Mr Jamal, Mr Coulter
and Jo Todd, thank you very much for coming to give evidence to
the Committee this morning. What we are going to do is ask a series
of questions to individual witnesses and if you could be as brief
as possible it would be very helpful. Anything we do not cover
in the session it would be helpful if we could have a note. Could
I start with a question to you, Mr Coulter? What is the scale
of male victimisation and what are the particular needs of male
victims?
Mr Coulter: I think we have to
say first that, in terms of our knowledge about male victims of
domestic violence, our knowledge-base is fairly minimal. In terms
of what we know about female victims, we are 40 years behind,
so this is a new area. The British Crime Survey suggests that
one in six men will experience one incident in their lifetime.
As soon as you look at a pattern of behaviour, the results show
89% of victims are female.
Q211 Chairman: Are the needs of male
victims different in heterosexual marriages or partnerships?
Mr Coulter: I believe so, yes.
The risk profile for gay, bi and trans men is far closer to that
of the experiences of heterosexual women, and the needs of heterosexual
men are different again. They do not tend to engage with services
on a face to face basis. In two years outreach when I was working
in Devon I had a minimal amount of men that were willing to engage
on a face to face basis. Heterosexual men prefer telephone contact,
support, use of the Internet, things like that there, so there
is a difference.
Q212 Chairman: How often are men
victims also perpetrators? Are you satisfied with the screening
tools that exist?
Mr Coulter: Frankly, there are
no screening tools, except for the one I have worked on and developed
and at the moment am currently piloting in Croydon and Newham.
Perpetrators and victims: probably 60%, 70%, in my experience.
Q213 Chairman: Is there any prejudice
against male victims of domestic violence?
Mr Coulter: Not necessarily. I
do not thing there is any prejudice. Within the sector and training
events that I have been on a lot of practitioners are asking:
"What do we do with male victims?" I think there are
a lot of myths and there is also a tendency to think that their
experiences and needs are exactly the same as heterosexual women.
To my mind they are fundamentally different, and if you apply
the template for working with female victims to male victims,
then, rather than making people safer, we are actually going to
escalate risk.
Q214 Chairman: Do you think that
there is a need for a public information campaign on this issue?
Mr Coulter: I think we need to
raise awareness that men experience domestic violence and they
should seek help earlier, and that goes for men who are using
violence towards their partners or men who are experiencing violence
as victims.
Q215 Martin Salter: There appears
to be a bit of a problem in terms of the programmes run by the
Probation Service for perpetrators. Can you give us your experience
as to whether the Probation Service (this is a question for you,
Jo) is properly resourced to effectively deliver any of these
programmes?
Ms Todd: I think resourcing is
the key issue. There has been quite a lot of work done within
the Probation Service at theory level and at a developing programmes
level. They have got two programmes that are accredited by the
Correctional Accreditation Services Panel that are meant to be
running across all regions, but we know anecdotally and from probation
staff that it is very patchy provision. There are lots of problems
in terms of places on programmes, on actual capacity, numbers
on programmes. We are aware of the women's safety work, which
is a key and crucial element to the way these programmes have
been written, in terms that if you work with a perpetrator you
should also be working and providing support and protection to
a partner or ex-partner of the crimes that he has committed, and
children as well. That is the Probation Service model, but we
are aware that the way it is being rolled out currently means
there is really patchy provision. Some regions have taken that
very seriously and have got good numbers of women's safety workers
in place and have got programmes running well, and some areas
really do not have very much at all. We are aware of certain areas
that have got very long waiting lists where they have even told
the magistrates' courts, "Do not bother referring. We have
closed the waiting list. You cannot even make an order to a programme."
We have got concerns as well about what happens to the men when
they are on waiting lists. If they are waiting to go on a programme—they
might have a two-year probation order—they might have to
wait so long there is no point them starting the programme because
they will not have time to finish it before the order is complete.
There are many, many problems within probation that are much more
about resources than about anything else.
Q216 Martin Salter: One follow-up
question. Are there programmes available for young perpetrators
of 18 to 21, or female perpetrators, or, indeed, any other minority
groups?
Ms Todd: Within the Probation
Service?
Q217 Martin Salter: Yes.
Ms Todd: For domestic violence
specific programmes, not that I am aware of, no, and we do think
that there needs to be specific provision for those groups.
Q218 Martin Salter: I would have
thought that, if you were to prioritise the groups that would
need it most, given that choices would have to be made, putting
a programme in place for young perpetrators is probably more productive
and likely to end in a more positive outcome than someone that
perhaps has been engaged in domestic violence for many, many years,
and almost trying to nip it in the bud?
Ms Todd: Yes, absolutely, and
I think we need to do a bit more thinking and research about what
young perpetrators needs are. One of the things I have noticed,
and I used to run perpetrators programmes, is that young perpetrators
can very much put down their perpetration as an excuse—"It
is the relationship", or, "It is her"—because
it may be their first or second relationship. By the time you
are 40 years old you cannot use that as an excuse any more; it
is very clear that it is your issue as a perpetrator. So young
perpetrators have probably got more recourse to justifications
that are not correct, but they may be resistant to being worked
with. There are some issues there that we need to do a bit of
thinking and research on before we just make an assumption and
nip it in the bud. I think it is about interventions, not just
programmes as well. It is about what would work with young people:
preventative work, interventions at an early stage, and programmes
as well.
Q219 Mr Streeter: You mentioned the
pressure on the perpetrator programme. I want to ask you about
how the voluntary sector and all your agencies are working with
statutory agencies to try and overcome this backlog, but can I
also ask about a thought you have put in my mind: how many perpetrators
do we know have been brought up in a household where they have
seen domestic violence themselves first-hand? Is there a percentage
that you can give us or a feel for it?
Ms Todd: That is stepping into
a minefield actually. There are lots of differing opinions on
intergenerational cycles of violence. I think it is clear that
if violence has been normalised for you as a child, then you have
a certain relation to it as you grow into being an adult, but
it is not clear that there is a causal relationship. It is not
clear that if you witness it in your home that, as a boy you become
a perpetrator, as a girl you become a victim. I think it is a
risk factor, it may make it a higher risk that that happens, but
I am aware of men in my personal life as well as just men that
I have worked with, colleagues, who have witnessed it as children
and made really sure that they are not going to perpetrate it
because they have had empathy with their mother. So there is not
a straight causal link, but it is something we need to work with
because it is a huge justification that men use for their use
of violence, "That is just how it is. That is just what happens
in our family, in our community, in our street, in our neighbourhood",
and so on. You asked me another question, which I wrote down,
so I am going to make sure I answer it, about voluntary sector
agencies working with statutory around the backlog and meeting
demand. There are about 37 voluntary sector programmes working
in the UK at the moment at different locations across various
different regions, some are well served, some are not. There is
a lack of capacity at the moment to do much joined up work with
probation, but there is a huge willingness to do it. There is
a willingness from us as an organisation. Respect is very willing
to work with probation at a national level. There has been no
formal arrangement to date, but we are very willing to enter into
a formal relationship. Respect has just been funded by the Home
Office to develop accreditations for the voluntary sector, and
that is being rolled out in April. Probation have been involved
in that, so have ADSS, the Home Office, but across the board we
have had the right people involved in that accreditation process.
We hope, once we have got accredited programmes in the voluntary
sector, the statutory sector will feel much more confident about
working in partnership. We have got some ideas about how that
might work, and I can either talk about them now or I can send
you a note on that.
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