Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340
- 359)
TUESDAY 4 MARCH 2008
MR IAIN
WRIGHT MP AND
KEVIN BRENNAN
MP
Q340 Ms Buck: We have, and, indeed,
one of the things that Women's Aid found, which very much confirms
my own experience, is that there are occasions when households
are offered accommodation which is unsuitable for their needs
in a number of ways and are then declared intentionally homeless
as a consequence. In some cases this is because they have been
reluctant to take out-of-borough accommodation, miles away from
their home. Is that acceptable?
Mr Wright: It is something I would
like to look at. In terms of possible legislation, I am taking
the Housing and Regeneration Bill through the House of Commons
at the moment. There was an important amendment tabled by Andy
Love that was supported by Margaret Moran with regards to vulnerability.
This is the sort of thing that I thought was an incredibly powerful
and eloquent argument about vulnerability and the test of priority
need for people who are fleeing domestic violence. I have agreed
to take that away and look at it. I am very keen to make sure
that we are considering this so that anybody who is fleeing—.
One of the things that Margaret Moran actually said, Chairman,
at the committee was that it is very much a postcode lottery in
terms of what goes on. I want to stress-test that as much as possible
and make sure that the discretion and definition of vulnerability
that Margaret Moran mentioned in the committee is addressed, and
I promise to report back, at report stage of the bill, further
progress but I am very keen to work on this. I think this is an
important matter that this department, and me personally, needs
to be dealing with.
Q341 Ms Buck: There clearly is a
discrepancy between what the department says happens and what
is actually happening on the ground. Is this something that you
are able to close? Another example of this: I met a woman recently
who was on her ninth temporary accommodation address in ten years.
This is not supposed to happen. Why does it happen?
Mr Wright: It is not good enough.
I admit that. What I would be suggesting, and what I want to do
as much as possible is undertake policy that is evidence-based.
I have mentioned research into sanctuary schemes, which I am keen
to address. I was also struck, Chairman, by the evidence given
to this committee by Ms Harwin, who I understand is the Chief
Executive of Women's Aid. In terms of this silting off of the
process, I am keen to go in, look at this and make sure that the
vision of the department and the Government, in terms of accommodation
which is appropriate for the victims of domestic violence, matches
the reality on the ground. It is a very important, incredibly
difficult and complex issue that involves a great deal of broader
issues about housing supply, but, in terms of the priority of
this government in terms of housing, I think it is something that
we are addressing and making sure that that vision matches up
with the reality.
Q342 Ms Buck: Do you actually know
who gets nominations for social housing?
Mr Wright: In terms of the department?
Q343 Ms Buck: In terms of the number
of people who enter the system through different channels who
then end up getting a tenancy and where they come from; whether
it is domestic violence or medical priority or other routes into
homelessness.
Mr Wright: We get some degree
of information through the P1E form, but there is always tension
between how much data we collect and how much we leave to the
discretion of the local authorities in respect of the devolution
agenda, with local needs being addressed by local measures. I
understand that tension and a balance needs to be struck as to
where we need to be. It is very important, but I understand your
point.
Q344 Margaret Moran: I am going be
boring and refer back to postcode lottery provision, particularly
the evidence that we have received. If you have read the evidence
from Nicola Harwin, you will have seen that there is an on-going
concern regarding commissioning under Supporting People, that
the thrust of the guidance, or the thrust of what is happening
with local authorities through the tendering process, is for more
generic services, thus losing the specialisms of both Women's
Aid and, more acutely, BME women's support services. We were at
Ashiana yesterday, who are losing two of their workers. We understand
that Southall Black Sisters, one of the most long-established
in this area, dealing with both domestic violence and forced marriage,
is under financial threat partly because of the way in which tendering
and commissioning is happening. What can you do to ensure that
we have some ring fenced funding so that those services do not
vanish entirely. In Scotland they ring fenced Supporting People.
Why cannot we do it here?
Mr Wright: That is a very important
point. I think it is very important that we have efficiencies
in the Supporting People programme. I do not think anybody would
dispute that. In terms of the expertise that has been built up
on the ground, it is very important that we retain that. My department
has provided funding and round about three and a half million
pounds over the last three years to provide advice and capacity
building for the umbrella firms in respect of the voluntary sector.
Recently the Housing Association charitable trust has been given
half a million pounds to come up with ways in which that expertise
that you were referring to is captured and retained as much as
possible. It could be through a whole range of things—it
could be through subcontracting and sub-tendering, it could be
through consortia—but I am very clear, and I would be very
keen, Chairman, as to the examples that have been mentioned today,
if you could give me evidence of that so I can take it away and
see where the difficulties have been in respect of tendering and
procurement and what we can do centrally to address that.
Q345 Chairman: Members of the Committee
went to visit Southall Black Sisters and, as a direct result of
the process that you have initiated, it may well close. I have
written to the leader of the Council about this, and he said,
"This is what the Government has asked us to do." That
is the evidence.
Mr Wright: I am very keen for
them not to close, Chairman. As I said, I would like to look at
that more closely and make sure that any difficulties that have
been put in place because of tendering and procurement guidelines
issued centrally are addressed so that we can resolve this.
Q346 Bob Russell: Mr Wright, the
unintended consequences of the legislation are already happening.
Margaret Moran has said so, Nicola Harwin of Women's Aid told
this committee and gave a specific incidence where a local authority
had, in effect, removed 30 years of experience, and the Chairman
and I had the same warnings yesterday at the Woman's Aid in my
constituency. This is a serious threat and, I am sorry, your answer
and your department's answer is not good enough.
Mr Wright: Let me look at that.
Mr Russell, I have read the submission and the transcript of earlier
sessions of this Committee where you have raised this very issue.
I am very concerned at the loss of expertise and capacity on the
ground, the unintended consequences of making sure that we have
efficiencies, and I am keen to address that. I hope I can pledge
that to the Committee.
Q347 Margaret Moran: Perhaps we could
have a note specifically about BME women's special services and,
whilst you are doing that note, would you look at what I call
the Darra Singh consultation—you know what I mean: community
cohesion—which also appears to veer in the same direction,
in other words focusing more on generic services and squeezing
out specific BME support services? I think the thrust of your
department is going in that direction. It is not just Supporting
People; it is a whole range of initiatives. Could I ask you one
further question which is about no recourse to public funds? You
no doubt are aware that we are in a situation where BME women,
where they have uncertain immigration status under the domestic
violence rule but are applying for status, have no recourse to
public funds. Why is it that your department does not want the
advice to local authorities to be strengthened? Currently the
advice on helping to fund those survivors or victims who have
no recourse is simply for information only. These women become
destitute as a result, because Women's Aid and other hostels simply
cannot afford to take them, and the funding that was available
to try and help out through Women's Aid has now gone. Why is it
that you have not evaluated the impact of the information, not
even guidance, nothing stronger than information, to local authorities
and what is actually happening to those survivors?
Mr Wright: In terms of recourse
to public funds, one of the whole intentions of Supporting People
is that it is flexible and mobile so that it follows the person
who is actually accessing that rather than being quite strict
and silo-based funding. In that respect I am fairly happy, but
I am also keen to go away and look at the issues that you are
concerned about.
Q348 Margaret Moran: They are not
entitled to any support?
Mr Wright: Chairman, let me take
that away and look at it, because I am concerned with what you
are saying. As I said, my very clear intention is that it is very
flexible and mobile, it follows various groups who are at risk
(1) of being mobile and (2) in danger of being destitute. Victims
of domestic violence is one group, gypsies and travellers are
another, but that is certainly an issue I can take away.
Q349 Mr Winnick: Mr Wright, you said
in reply to the Chairman that you are looking into, or will look
into, the position of the Southall Black Sisters. Clearly, I think
you will recognise it will be a devastating blow—I do not
think there is any other way to describe it—if it was forced
to close as a result of a new formula the local authorities intended
to use over financing. Would it be possible for you to give us
a note in the next two weeks about the situation?
Mr Wright: Yes, I will do that.
Chairman: If we could ask for it by next
week, because the Council is considering this. I will send you
a copy of the letter from the leader of the Council and if you
can report to us next week, that would be very helpful.
Q350 Mr Winnick: We will have it
by next week then.
Mr Wright: Yes.
Q351 Tom Brake: Mr Wright, I believe
that local authorities have an option of choosing the two domestic
violence targets as part of the indicators in the new local area
agreement system, and those are reducing repeat victimisation
and reducing homicide. Would you happen to know how many local
authorities have indeed adopted those indicators or intend doing
so?
Mr Wright: Out of 150 authorities,
150 so far have pledged to do that, although we are still in the
process of negotiation with those local authorities, so that could
alter. I would anticipate, in terms of the direction of travel,
that would increase.
Q352 Tom Brake: That is good news.
Are you confident, however, that under the new local area agreement
arrangements there will be an ability not just to focus on perhaps
the highest risk cases but also the wider range of cases?
Mr Wright: I do think that in
the new system that we are proposing, in terms of local area agreements,
local authorities will have the discretion to focus on the areas
that most concern them and also to be more nimble in their responses.
I think that is important. The previous BPVI was somewhat blunt
and did not take into account circumstances or direction of travel
in terms of the 11 questions that they answered and then came
out magically at the end, yes or no. In that respect I do think
the new local area agreements and NI32 will be a lot better and
allow local authorities to be much more responsive.
Q353 Tom Brake: Is there anything
that the department will be doing in terms of monitoring the progress
in relation to the performance indicators?
Mr Wright: As part of that negotiation,
as I mentioned earlier, this is certainly something that we will
be talking to local authorities about.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr Brake. We now
turn to Mr Brennan. Thank you for sitting there so patiently.
As you know, this matter was raised during the course of our inquiry
by our colleague Martin Salter, who cannot be with us today. He
raised it at Prime Minister's Questions and he has written to
the Secretary of State about it. Gwyn Prosser.
Q354 Gwyn Prosser: Mr Brennan, yesterday
we visited Ashiana in Leytonstone and we had a briefing from a
young outreach education worker. Her role is go into schools and
talk about the domestic violence issue, about forced marriages
and give advice, and she made it very clear to us that there were
some very strict barriers which were stopping her doing her job
properly. Some schools would not have her at all, other schools
limited what she could say and quite a number of schools would
not even allow her to leave leaflets or put notices on the notice
board. The worrying factor is it seems that those schools which
were resistant probably house a greater proportion of those girls
and young women who would be victims of violence. What powers
does the department have to instruct schools to adopt measures
to tackle domestic violence and forced marriage?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, all schools
should be dealing with matters relating to the safeguarding of
children, including domestic violence and forced marriage. I read
with interest the evidence you have taken here in the committee
and the reports as well as the letter from Martin Salter, and,
in fact, Chairman, we have done some more work, which your committee
might be interested in in the meantime, through government offices
to find out what has happening in various parts of the country
where there is a particular problem in relation to forced marriage.
I could give you a little bit of a flavour of the sorts of things
that are happening, but perhaps it would be better if I provided
you with a longer note after the committee session because there
is quite a bit of work that has been done. What we have done is
looked into the issue of what is happening in schools in relation
to information about forced marriages, and it is not just an issue
of posters, Chairman, as I am sure you appreciate, it is an issue
of to what extent is there a culture within schools of being prepared
to take on this issue. Every school must have a member of staff
whose job it is to look after the safeguarding of children. Every
person working with children in school should receive training
in relation to the safeguarding of children, including issues
of domestic violence and forced marriage. In our evidence that
we have been collecting from the government offices over recent
weeks about this, I think it is fair to say there is a variable
performance around the country in relation to what is going on.
In some areas there is very good practice going on whereby the
issue is being taken very seriously, and often leaflets are being
used instead of the posters that you have heard evidence about
previously; in other areas of the country, I think it is fair
to say, there is insufficient awareness, and what we are intending
to do in building on all the work that has gone on about safeguarding
children and on this issue of forced marriage and domestic violence
in recent years is to do a lot more work with the Forced Marriage
Unit in the months to come to design better materials for schools;
because I think it is fair to say, if you have seen the poster,
Chairman—
Q355 Chairman: Here is the poster
that Gwyn Prosser was referring to.
Kevin Brennan: Indeed.
Q356 Chairman: What gave rise to
this was the fact that in Derby this was not being displayed.
That is why we are keen to know, and that is why Mr Prosser has
asked you, what have you done about the fact that this poster
has not been displayed?
Kevin Brennan: In relation to
Derby, Chairman, my officials have visited the local authority
and spoken to them about the issues that have occurred in Derby,
and they were very keen to impress on us that they have a very
strong commitment to safeguarding children, including the issue
of forced marriage. They found that three of the 13 secondary
schools that they contacted could recall having contact from Karma
Nirvana, who I know gave evidence to this committee. Of those
three, two of them were already working with Karma Nirvana on
the issue. One of them was displaying the poster. The other, the
school explained it did not display that particular poster but
was covering the topic of forced marriage through the curricular.
We do not direct schools what materials to use in relation to
the issue of forced marriage or in relation to any issue of what
posters they should put up. That is just one possible way of dealing
with the issue.
Q357 Chairman: But dealing with Mr
Prosser's point, did you find that schools were not putting up
these posters? That, I think, is the issue he wants to raise with
you.
Kevin Brennan: I think in relation
to both Derby and across the country a limited number of schools
were using that particular poster. The point I wanted to make,
Chairman, having looked at that poster—which was produced
by the Forced Marriage Unit, as you are aware—is that what
we want to do over the next few months, and particularly before
the summer holidays, which is a critical period in relation to
this, is to work with them to design some materials that are more
specifically designed for schools and young people, to write to
them to raise awareness.
Q358 Chairman: Are you designing
the posters? Is that the issue?
Kevin Brennan: It could be a poster,
but it could be other materials as well, Chairman, because, as
I said, in some schools they may not feel that that is the best
approach for them to take, to display a poster, there may be more
discreet ways they would like to deal with the issue.
Q359 Gwyn Prosser: We are not talking
about forced marriage or the victims of so-called honour-violence;
we are also talking about the wider, very worrying concerns of
domestic violence in general. I think the important point to stress
is that, again, the resistance, we were told, mostly comes from
the governing body and, if the governing body is made of communities
who have some sort of lasting respect, if you can call it respect,
have some sort of resonance with the whole issue and culture of
arranged marriages and forced marriages and tolerance of domestic
violence, male against female, then that is a very hard nut to
crack. What can the department do to penetrate that?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, as you
know, there will be guidance being put on a statutory footing
in relation to forced marriage which will include guidance to
people working in education in the months to come, and it is unacceptable
for any governing body or any body of teaching staff not to take
seriously in any school, for any child in any part of the country,
any issue relating to the safeguarding of children. I want to
make that absolutely clear, Chairman. Where there are issues of
that arising, then clearly it is the case that, in relation to
the inspection of those schools, those matters should be brought
out very clearly and remedial action taken. Every child matters,
Chairman, in every school in the country.
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