Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 398)
TUESDAY 4 MARCH 2008
MR IAIN
WRIGHT MP AND
KEVIN BRENNAN
MP
Q380 David Davies: Are they looking
for them?
Kevin Brennan: I do not have that
information in front of me.
Q381 David Davies: Do you know how
many other cities have up to 20 girls who have disappeared under
the age of 16 across the UK?
Kevin Brennan: It is fair to say
that the issue of forced marriage is particularly prevalent in
certain areas. I understand that the areas which government offices
have been asking questions about are the areas which are particularly
of concern. I should imagine it is those areas where we would
have a similar problem. Government offices inquired of, I think,
14 different areas in the country, Chairman. I can provide you
with that list if you like.
Q382 Chairman: In answer to Mr Davies'
question, he is obviously very concerned about it, as is the Committee.
Fourteen areas; 23 in Bradford. What is the global figure of the
missing children?
Kevin Brennan: That figure, as
I explained earlier on, Chairman, is not available at a national
level, but we are looking with the Forced Marriage Unit, as I
explained earlier on, to find a way to be able to collect that
statistic at national level.
Q383 Chairman: How did you look at
Bradford's figures?
Kevin Brennan: By government offices
contacting Bradford City Council, Chairman. The point I was making
was that for the last year, for the first time, these statistics
are now being collected by local authorities, and that has been
a requirement placed on them by government.
Q384 David Davies: Surely you can
tott up the total figures from each of the 14 areas you have inquired
of and give us the total number. We would like to know how many
young girls under the age of 16 have disappeared. We can assume
that it is in the hundreds.
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, I may
be able to provide you with some figures in relation to that after
today's session from information we have available through government
offices. Also, there is some information, but it is not entirely
reliable, from the school census because, of course, not all of
the young people involved necessarily have been on the school—
Q385 David Davies: Are you going
to call the police in about this?
Kevin Brennan: I beg your pardon?
Q386 David Davies: Will you call
in the police if the education authorities in those areas are
unwilling to do so?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, I would
have to look at what my locus is with regard to calling in the
police as a minister, but it is certainly the case that where
there is any concern about a missing child and any suspicion with
regard to the safeguarding of that child, the police should be
involved.
Q387 Chairman: I realise that you
are hindered in relation to these issues because of the facts
not being with you at the moment, Minister, but it would be extremely
helpful if you could let the Committee know by next Tuesday the
figures that we request.
Kevin Brennan: Certainly, Chairman.
I will undertake to provide you with any figures that you require.
Q388 Chairman: They are most important
in the way in which we will conclude our inquiry, so that would
be very helpful. Have you ever considered a designated point for
domestic violence and forced marriage issues, a contact person
in each school, as being an effective way of dealing with these
issues?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, the guidance
already requires every school to appoint a senior member of staff
as a designated person on the safeguarding of children, and that
would include forced marriage and domestic violence. They should
also have a deputy in case they are absent from school, and clearly
they could, if they wished to, ask that deputy to specialise in
a particular area, but there is already a designated person who
should be dealing with this within each school.
Chairman: That is very helpful. Thank
you.
Q389 Tom Brake: Mr Brennan, you have
mentioned the fact that the Forced Marriage Unit is going to be
developing guidance which will be of a statutory nature. You have
said that that is going to give more levers. Can you explain what
those levers are?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, we would
expect the new guidance to be incorporated into child protection
training within all our schools, and that would not just apply
to teaching staff, that applies to all staff within the school,
and that then would be monitored by Ofsted as part of any school
assessments and inspections, and work to tackle forced marriage
clearly is part of that process. The local Safeguarding of Children
Board as well, Chairman, would be responsible for monitoring and
making sure that that local safeguarding is evaluated at a local
level with regard to forced marriage. We are looking also at ways
within that guidance that we can monitor better, as I have mentioned
already, instances of absence from school.
Q390 Tom Brake: When you say you
would expect it to be included in child protection training, do
you mean it will be?
Kevin Brennan: Yes, Chairman.
Q391 Tom Brake: Would you also expect
or require perhaps the detailed reporting to the police after
a determined period of time when people have gone missing, so
that the national statistics, which you are not able to provide
immediately, you are going to have to go and find, would then
be readily available because the statutory guidance would require
reporting to happen at a certain time and in a certain way consistently
across the country?
Kevin Brennan: Chairman, there
is also a requirement for local authorities to collect the information,
although they do not form part of a national statistic and I appreciate
that is a technical thing. Mr Davies is correct, it is possible
to look at what local authorities have collected and to ask for
that information, but we do have protocols around burdens that
we place on local authorities which have to be gone through. There
are already quite specific measures that should be taken in the
instance where there is any concern about forced marriage and
the procedures that should be followed are already in place. For
example, if a school is concerned and reports matters to Children's
Services, already within the Safeguarding Children and Safer Recruitment
in Education guidelines there is a very specific flowchart which
children's social workers should follow, which takes into account
all the questions that they should ask and the things that they
should not do in relation to dealing with these sorts of issues.
Q392 Tom Brake: Once the guidance
is statutory, is the requirement that all teachers should be trained
in the guidance? Will your Department ensure that this is monitored
nationally?
Kevin Brennan: In relation to
the training of teachers, that is a matter that is undertaken
and the budgets are controlled at a local level in schools to
provide them with the flexibility. All teachers and all the people
working with young people and children must be trained in safeguarding
issues, which would include domestic violence and forced marriage.
We do not intend to direct particular training in particular schools
on particular subjects at particular times; that is a matter that
is devolved to schools. It would be good practice and it certainly
would be part of our statutory guidance that these are issues
that teachers should be trained in. There is a designated person
in each school who will have special responsibility in these areas.
All teachers should be trained in how to spot the potential that
someone might be subject to a forced marriage or a victim of domestic
abuse or witnessing domestic violence.
Q393 Mrs Cryer: Are you going to
mention in these guidelines the fact that in September the Forced
Marriage Civil Protection Act comes into force whereby a teacher,
if she or he so wished, could actually go to court and seek an
injunction to stop parents from taking their child abroad for
marriage? I hope you are aware of this.
Kevin Brennan: Yes, Chairman.
Q394 Mrs Cryer: I hope it will be
included in your guidelines because that is the only way people
are going to know about it, if it filters through in that way.
Kevin Brennan: The guidelines
are being consulted upon and that is certainly a point that could
be contained within them. Perhaps I may pay tribute to Mrs Cryer
for the work she has done in this area over the years. I think
the very elegant use of the civil law in this regard, particularly
allowing third parties to use the law, which is what Mrs Cryer
is describing, is an extremely important step forward in this
area.
Q395 Mrs Cryer: My constituency is
part of Bradford and I am well aware of the horrors that schools
have with their truancy levels going up all the time and how that
after two weeks a child is removed from the school roll after
he or she has disappeared. It cannot help in tracking down children
if those children are removed from the school roll after two weeks
just to get them out of a situation of truancy. What are you prepared
to do about this? Are schools reluctant to report those who go
missing for fear of adversely affecting those truancy figures?
Kevin Brennan: Schools cannot
remove children from their rolls without reporting them as missing.
They have a duty under the pupil registration regulations not
to remove them from the register without reporting them as missing
and that duty is also placed on local authorities. They also have
a duty to try to find children who go missing and that duty also
applies to local authorities if they have been away from school
with an unauthorised absence of more than 20 days and therefore
there should not be the perverse incentives that she describes.
If in practice schools are not following that path then clearly
we need to be made aware of it. They may not delete children from
their registers without reporting them as missing.
Q396 Mrs Cryer: I am sure I am right
in saying that in Bradford children are removed from school rolls
after two weeks to avoid truancy levels going up and you are talking
about 20 days.
Kevin Brennan: That is correct.
There would have to be 20 days of continuous unauthorised absence
before a child can be removed from the school roll. They cannot
be removed from the school roll without them being reported as
missing. They have a duty to try to find out where they are and
that duty also applies to local authorities. If that is not happening
in practice then obviously that evidence is very important.
Mrs Cryer: I hope you will take this
up with the education department in Bradford.
Q397 Ms Buck: In how many instances
have schools via local authorities actually reported children
missing?
Kevin Brennan: I have not got
that information.
Ms Buck: There are some pretty serious
inconsistencies in that data. That would be a very useful piece
of information to have because I think we will find there are
some pretty serious inconsistencies in that data.
Q398 Chairman: Thank you. Those are
very serious matters. Mr Brennan, we invited you to give evidence
to clear up a number of questions but you have actually raised
so many more. We are genuinely very concerned because these are
very, very serious matters. The figures you have given us have
shocked members of this Committee just in relation to Bradford.
What Mrs Cryer has said has made matters even more unclear to
us in the sense that we need the facts. There are 14 other areas
where there are missing children. This is totally unsatisfactory.
I would be most grateful if you would let me have a note by next
Tuesday with the figures contained in it.
Kevin Brennan: Of course.
Chairman: We do intend to raise this
again. We may have you back to give evidence before the end of
the inquiry. Mr Wright, we would be most grateful if you could
let us have a note about the position of Southall Black Sisters
and in particular the issues raised by members of this Committee
because I think that decision is going to happen very shortly.
We are extremely grateful to both of you. We know you are extremely
busy. Thank you for coming to give evidence this morning.
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