Examination of Witnesses (Questions 421
- 439)
TUESDAY 4 MARCH 2008
MR VERNON
COAKER MP
Q421 Chairman: Minister, you came
early and you heard the evidence that was given by Kiranjit Ahluwalia.
Have things got better?
Mr Coaker: Chairman, thank you
very much for the invitation to come in and listen to that testimony.
In some respects we have made progress. We can point to a range
of measures that have been taken, that is, specialist domestic
violence courts, independent domestic violence advisers, the Domestic
Violence Act and the Forced Marriage Act that is going to come
into force in the autumn. However, if you go out on the ground
and say, as we have just heard, is everything as we would want
it to be, do we have all the statistics that we need, do we have
all of the services in place that we need, then the answer to
that is clearly that there is a long way to go. We have made significant
progress in my view. If you look at some of the legislative and
criminal justice proposals that are there and all the guidance
that is going out, it is about turning all of that into reality
on the ground and understanding it. The point that was being made
in that moving testimony is that it is not just a criminal justice
response that is important, it is the prevention and the support
and so on that needs to be made available as well.
Q422 Mr Streeter: You mentioned just
now the Domestic Violence Act 2004 and yet section 9 (domestic
homicide reviews) and section 12 (restraining orders) have not
been implemented. It is no good passing an Act unless we implement
it. Is it a shortage of money that is stopping us from protecting
people properly? What is going on here?
Mr Coaker: With respect to statutory
homicide reviews, which are one of the sections of the Domestic
Violence Act that has not been implemented yet, I can tell the
Committee that the intention is to implement that in the summer.
I think that is an important step forward. Mr Streeter, you are
quite right to say it is something that we perhaps ought to have
moved forward more quickly on, but we are now in a position to
say that hopefully we will be able to not just review those homicides
but we will actually be able to implement them. Alongside that
we have the other aspect of it which is the criminalisation of
the breach of restraining orders. I am not able to say to the
Committee that we have come to a position where I can tell you
that we will implement those. There are negotiations continuing
between ourselves and the Ministry of Justice with respect to
costs and prison places, but it is my intention—and I make
this commitment to you—that we will do that as soon as we
possibly can because I recognise the importance of ensuring that
the criminalisation of restraint orders was an important part
of the Act. We should have done it by now. All I can say to the
Committee is that we have made some progress with homicide reviews
and we will continue to do that. The Domestic Violence Act has
made a significant difference. We have got the non-molestation
orders and that has been implemented and made a difference. There
are one or two outstanding sections. I have dealt with one. We
will deal with the other one as soon as possible. The other part
of the Act has made a significant difference to tackling this
problem.
Q423 Ms Buck: I want to ask about
the Government's approach to the target setting and the way in
which we focus very heavily on the criminal justice side of it
given that, as we know, only a quarter of domestic violence cases
get to the criminal justice system. Why is it that we have focused
so much in terms of our objectives on what is a serious but nonetheless
minority part of the whole problem?
Mr Coaker: I think it is right
to say that there has been an emphasis on criminal justice and
that alongside that there has been a need for us to recognise
that you cannot just solve this through a criminal justice response,
it is necessary to go out and talk in the communities. We have
done that to a certain extent. In terms of the action plans that
we are bringing forward, particularly with respect to honour-based
violence, we will be holding seminars in various communities about
what that should involve. We need to talk to our colleagues in
other government departments and accept the responsibility that
we have ourselves to ensure that those voluntary organisations
that work in communities, that are supporting victims and are
dealing with these cases, which are very difficult, are supported.
The natural reaction is often to have a criminal justice response
to issues. The evidence you have had from various people has shown
that the statistics are the tip of the iceberg, that there is
a lot more with respect to some of the issues that arise from
forced marriage going on in communities which has surprised us
all. If we are going to deal with that then simply by responding
in a criminal justice sense will not be sufficient. What are we
doing in our schools? What are we doing to support victims when
they come forward? How are we changing the culture with respect
to this so that, as we heard so appallingly, when somebody comes
forward and even engages with agencies people actually listen
to them, believe them, understand them, all of those sorts of
things? That on its own will not be brought about by a criminal
justice response.
Q424 Ms Buck: I think that is absolutely
right and I am sure we all welcome you saying that. If the national
delivery plan does place so much emphasis on that, is it not the
case that inevitably—and we have seen this across the board
with targets—this squeezes out the resource that is available
for precisely that broader contextual work that you are talking
about? What concrete steps can we take to make sure that that
does not happen in the future?
Mr Coaker: I think the answer
to your question is yes, there is a danger that that can happen.
One of the key aims of the national delivery plan is to reduce
the prevalence of domestic violence and to increase the rate that
it is reported. If we are going to take those sorts of measures
then we need to understand that. In terms of the practical things
that are going on, in the Forced Marriage Act there is the guidance
that will become statutory in the near future. That guidance goes
out to the police, to social service professionals, to education
and all of the various professionals that work within that area.
In terms of the practical steps we are going to take, we need
to ensure that those people have regard to the duty with respect
to them. We are holding seminars in communities across the country
where we will actually be going out and talking about what it
is that the Government should be doing in order to address this
problem and involving communities themselves in the solutions
to the problems rather than dictating to them. Is there a danger
that the criminal justice system dominates? Yes, there is. How
do we do something about that? The first thing is a recognition
in Government that there is that danger, but we need to ensure
that we balance it and part of that responsibility belongs to
the inter-ministerial group, which involves all of the ministers
across government. One of the things that I have thought about
considering since the Committee started this inquiry is, in order
to deal with the problem that Ms Buck has raised, whether we actually,
in the same way for sexual violence and some of the other things,
have stakeholder groups which we meet with regularly. It might
be an idea for us to look at involving them in discussions with
us at a ministerial level to inform us on the way forward and
the policies that we pursue and adopt.
Q425 Chairman: Is there an Inter-Ministerial
Group on Domestic Violence?
Mr Coaker: Yes.
Q426 Chairman: Is the Department
for Children represented on that?
Mr Coaker: Yes, it is.
Q427 Chairman: Were you therefore
shocked, as we were, to hear that there were 23 missing children
in Bradford and the minister is not aware of what has happened
to them?
Mr Coaker: All the departments
you would expect to be are on that committee.
Q428 Chairman: Did you know about
that figure?
Mr Coaker: I did not, no.
Q429 Chairman: Do you know that he
also does not know how many children are missing in 14 other areas?
Mr Coaker: I did not know that.
Q430 Chairman: What are you going
to do about it?
Mr Coaker: As part of the challenge
that there is for all of us—and it is a challenge for me
as well as the co-ordinator and the lead minister with responsibility
for that group—we need to ensure that the inter-ministerial
group works as effectively as possible, that we demand and say
to the various ministers and departments who contribute to that
that they look at their own practice, look at their own policies
and procedures and ensure that we bring all of that to the table.
Q431 Chairman: One of the key things
is to get the statistics. How often does this group meet?
Mr Coaker: It meets roughly quarterly.
Q432 Chairman: And on the last occasion
nobody from the Department for Children, Schools and Families
mentioned the missing Bradford children?
Mr Coaker: Not from memory, no.
I cannot remember that being mentioned.
Q433 Mr Winnick: Why are the police
not looking for these children? Is there a possibility that it
is assumed that if they are from the Asian community they have
been taken abroad?
Mr Coaker: I do not know the particular
instances. It is something we will look at. First of all, if children
are missing from school or children are missing full stop then
that is a matter of concern whatever the community. If there are
23 children missing then there are 23 children missing. That should
be a matter of concern in that area. That matter should be reported
to the police. If it is reported to the police then you and I
would expect, as the minister responsible, that the police would
investigate that, they would look for those children, they would
regard it as a matter of the highest priority and that they would
respond in the appropriate way. I do not know the details, but
you would expect the police to be informed of that and the police
to respond with the highest priority to that because there can
be nothing worse than children going missing.
Q434 Mr Winnick: If they are not
reacting with the highest priority, can we take it that arising
from this session there will be a different approach and if children
are missing one of the first priorities of the police will be
to look for those children? They could be sexually assaulted or
subject to other forms of abuse, even murdered. There is a necessity
for some sort of priority which at the moment does not seem to
be the case.
Mr Coaker: Of course. No one could
disagree with the points that you are making. That was my point
in answer to the Chairman's question at the beginning when I said
that we had procedures that were supposed to be followed. All
of those are now in place. The key thing is to make sure that
those procedures are actually implemented and that is with respect
to missing children and the broader domestic violence agenda as
well, so that if somebody turns up at the front desk they are
actually believed and listened to. I know you had Chief Constable
Brian Moore here talking about this and I spoke to him a week
or two ago and he was saying to me that one of the things he is
going to be doing, because of his concerns that there is inconsistent
practice across the country, is bringing all of the police forces
together in order to look at these particular issues to see how
we move forward.
Q435 Chairman: This also relates
to the other areas. It is not just Bradford. He listed 14 other
areas. Presumably after this meeting you will get a list of these
areas and find out what is happening.
Mr Coaker: Absolutely.
Q436 Chairman: In respect of Chief
Constable Brian Moore's point, are you satisfied with his proposals
to have a more consistent approach amongst the various police
authorities?
Mr Coaker: I am satisfied that
Chief Constable Brian Moore is determined to bring about that
cultural change that needs to take place and that is the starting
point. We have got the most senior police officer with respect
to violence involved with this saying practically how he is going
to take this forward. I think the important thing then will be
for us to continue to monitor regularly the performance of our
police forces and our criminal justice system with respect to
all of this so as to be able to demonstrate statistically and
qualitatively through testimony that the system is changing and
responding to the demands that are being made on it.
Q437 Chairman: You chair the inter-ministerial
group, do you not?
Mr Coaker: Yes.
Q438 Margaret Moran: We know the
attrition rate in domestic violence cases is very high. Why is
it that when we talk about rape we measure the attrition rate
in one way and domestic violence in another, which demonstrates
that the attrition rate in domestic violence is worse than rape?
Surely that should be in the public domain and we should measure
things on a like-for-like basis.
Mr Coaker: The whole statistical
base of the work that we are doing needs to be updated and reviewed.
There is a discrepancy between the figures. It is something I
am looking at. I thought this question may come up. I have got
statistics relating to the total number of domestic violence incidents
that are reported which actually lead to charge, which leads to
prosecution, which leads to conviction and some percentages about
what that means in terms of success and outcomes.
Q439 Chairman: Could you send those
to the Committee?
Mr Coaker: I am going to send
those to the Committee because it does show some quite big improvements
in attrition because attrition is the real issue.
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