Examination of Witnesses (Questions 825
- 839)
TUESDAY 15 JULY 2008
MR BORIS
JOHNSON AND
MR KIT
MALTHOUSE
Q825 Chairman: This is the final
session in the select committee's inquiry into policing in the
21st century. May I, Mr Mayor, thank you for coming to give evidence
and also the Deputy Mayor, Mr Malthouse, and congratulate you
on your election as the Mayor for London and indeed, Mr Malthouse,
on your appointment as the Deputy Mayor. Can I also refer all
those present to the Register of Members' Interests where members'
interests are registered. May I start with you, Mr Johnson? Do
you believe that knife crime has overtaken terrorism as the number
one priority for policing in London?
Mr Johnson: If you think back
to the campaign that has just gone by and lot of the flack that
we took round about the autumn and Christmas for bringing this
issue up the political agenda, and if you look now at what dominates
the headlines, I do think that it was the right thing to do. We
need to make sure that everybody works to solve this problem.
I do not think it is an insoluble problem. With patience, we can
make a great deal of progress. But, if you ask me to prioritise
knife crime over terrorism, I would simply say to you that it
is not a choice that we feel obliged to make. They are two very
important priorities. I think Londoners want the maximum attention
devoted to both. I do not think that the active pursuit of knife
crime, or the active attempts to deal with knife crime, in any
way diminish or reduce our ability to tackle terrorism.
Q826 Chairman: The Government of
course has announced a couple of proposals over the weekend, the
most controversial of which was visits to hospitals by those who
are perpetrators of knife crime. What are your views on the Home
Secretary's proposals?
Mr Johnson: As I understood what
the Home Secretary was saying, she was proposing to elaborate
systems of restorative justice of one kind or another. I think
that there is a great deal of potential in restorative justice.
I am not convinced, as it was presented by the media, certainly
the idea of visiting people in hospital would necessarily be a
good idea.
Q827 Chairman: You have suggested,
I think only yesterday, using football icons like Rio Ferdinand
and others as examples of people who would be part of a wider
awareness campaign to stop young people carrying knives because
in the end, whatever legislation is passed, these young people
who are carrying knives. How would that system work?
Mr Johnson: That is absolutely
right, Mr Vaz. I do think there is huge potential for getting
people who are admired and respected by young people to speak
against the evils of carrying knives. Rio Ferdinand and other
people like him can certainly be enlisted in this cause. I have
to say my heart sinks when I hear or read about some of the language
that is used to describe the victims of knife crime by other members
of gangs—this stuff about you were a good soldier or a fallen
soldier. I do think we need as rapidly as possible as a society
to detonate the myth that there is anything romantic or glamorous
about these tragic episodes.
Q828 Chairman: Finally from me, Alf
Hitchcock has been appointed as the so-called knife tsar to co-ordinate
policy. What kind of relationship will he be having with the Mayor's
Office and indeed with you, Mr Malthouse? Have you met with him?
Have you discussed strategy yet?
Mr Malthouse: I have met him during
my general meetings at the Metropolitan Police, but his appointment
came as a surprise to us. I gather it was a personal contact from
the Home Secretary that led to his appointment. Nevertheless,
we will be talking to him over the week about how we can work
with him and his panel. I understand his role is more to disseminate
best practice across the country than to come up necessarily with
any policy proposals. On the basis that we are all in this together,
we are more than happy obviously to discuss our policy proposals
with him in the hope that they can be disseminated across the
country.
Q829 Mr Winnick: Mayor, obviously
everyone must be deeply shocked by the killings which have taken
place in recent months, bearing in mind even more so the ages
of those concerned. However, do you feel that the danger of knife
killings has been somewhat exaggerated?
Mr Johnson: I think that the risk
of knife killing per se, if you look at the statistics,
has not gone up. It is very important that we get across to people
that London is fundamentally a very safe city. I think I saw some
statistics saying that there were 70 knife killings in 2007 and
70 in the previous year.[1]
I may have the years wrong but those were roughly the statistics.
What has increased and what does need dealing with is an epidemic
amongst young people of carrying knives. We are seeing this in
the increase in the fatalities. I think also you have to bear
in mind that beneath each fatality there is a pyramid of minor
stabbings or lesser stabbings and injuries, and those are also
very worrying and they need to be tackled. I do not in any way
resile from our determination to bring this to the top of the
political agenda. If you are going to deal with the bottom of
the pyramid, so to speak, if you are going to deal with the root
causes of knife crime and why kids are so disaffected, alienated
and misguided as to carry knives, then you have to address the
circumstances in which they are growing up and the lack of boundaries,
lack of discipline, the feelings of alienation and disaffection
from which they are suffering. I think it is wholly right to raise
this up the political agenda in the way that we started to do
last year, with a view to tackling it and to building a very broad
consensus, which I think there is in this country, that it is
a priority.
Q830 Mr Winnick: Do you feel that
stop and search powers could be extended in order to minimise
the horrors of what we have seen? I ask simply because during
May and June, as you probably know, the police stopped in searching
on operation Blunt about 27,000 of what are described as likely
looking types and found out of 27,000, only 500—that is
under 2%—had knives on them? Do you feel stop and search
can help in trying, as I said, to minimise such crimes?
Mr Johnson: Let me say that also
in that period the police, in the course of Operation Blunt 2,
lifted about 732 knives or more now; they made more than 1400
arrests for knife-related offences. So their efforts were not
by any means in vain. The other day I was out at Mile End tube
station witnessing one of these operations. They had a scanner
and people were being requested rather than required, if you appreciate
the distinction, to go through the scanner. I talked to many of
the commuters about the experience and they overwhelmingly defended
what was going on. I feel people do think that it is worthwhile
if it means that people are deterred from carrying knives.
Q831 Mr Winnick: There is controversy
about whether or not the Home Secretary has denied that she wanted
those responsible or alleged to be responsible to visit victims
in hospital. Leaving aside hospitals, do you feel there is any
merit, in some instances at least, in those who were responsible
for knife crimes or indeed other crimes, and we are talking particularly
about young people under 21, visiting their victims and exchanging
whatever they would exchange so they could see for themselves
the terrible harm that they have inflicted on perfectly innocent
people?
Mr Johnson: Yes, Mr Winnick, I
do think there is merit, as I said earlier on, in programmes of
restorative justice.
Q832 Bob Russell: Mr Johnson, I am
grateful for your contribution in raising the profile of knife
crime. I believe the official statistics are: one gun fatality,
three knife fatalities. There is also evidence which suggests
that a lot of knife crimes are not finding their way to the attention
of the police. Would you therefore perhaps set up a system at
the accident and emergency departments of hospitals in London
to see whether we get a more accurate figure of what is really
going on?
Mr Johnson: I do think there is
a very strong case. When someone with a gunshot presents at A
and E, the hospital is under an obligation to report it. I think
we should look at making sure that hospitals are similarly useful
in dealing with knife crime by reporting knife wounds. There is
an argument to be had about whether or not this would deter people
from seeking medical attention in the event of a knife wound,
so we need to look at the possible adverse impact that policy
might have on those who have been wounded.
Q833 Martin Salter: Mr Mayor, I very
much endorse your approach to try to promote positive role models
for young people. Other witnesses we have had before us have shown
quite clearly that the rise in knife crime is attributed to some
extent to the carrying of knives becoming a fashion accessory.
In raising this up the agenda as we are doing here today, and
we have all been doing, is there not a danger of course that by
cranking it up—and some of the publicity and some of the
stats quoted are, frankly, fanciful in some newspapers—that
of course we reinforce that impression that knives are an essential
fashion accessory? How do we square that circle?
Mr Johnson: I think it is a very
acute point, if I may say so. I do think that is the problem that
we need to solve. We need to de-glamorize knife crime; we need
to make clear to people that this is moronic and wasteful. This
is not the death of Mercutio taking place on the streets of London.
Q834 Martin Salter: Who was that?
Your education cost more than mine!
Mr Johnson: It is a play that
is readily available in all good outlets by the noted British
author William Shakespeare. A guy called Mercutio was killed in
a gang fight. It is worth studying the text actually.
Q835 Chairman: Not today.
Mr Johnson: I commend it to the
committee. It does teach you something about the bogus atmosphere
of glamour that can surround these gangs and the strong romantic
sentimental feelings that can start to accrue to knife crime and
gang culture generally.
Q836 David Davies: Mr Mayor and Mr
Malthouse, some police officers feel there is a gap in stop and
search powers at the moment. They are quite complicated, as you
know. If a police officer stops somebody for a minor offence on
which they are not going to arrest but perhaps deal with by summons,
technically speaking they do not have any power to search that
person, even if they discover that he or she has recent convictions
for carrying knives, guns or for other kinds of violence. Would
you consider asking the Home Secretary for a change in pace so
that anyone who has been convicted recently—let us say within
six months, 12 months or two years—anyone with a recent
conviction for carrying a knife or a gun can be subject to a quick,
non-invasive search, an airport style pat down, if they are stopped
for any legitimate reason by the police?
Mr Johnson: It certainly seems
to me to be a very reasonable proposal. We will take it up with
the Home Secretary.
Mr Malthouse: Under Blunt 2, we
are obviously using the section 60 search, which would cover that
as well.
Q837 David Davies: I think section
60 only runs for 24 hours; it might be for 48 but only in specific
areas. A section 60 only covers a tiny percentage of the capital
and yet on a day-to-day basis police are stopping people for relatively
minor offences, which are not going to be arrestable, and they
are not be able to search them, despite knowing that they are
quite likely to be carrying some weapon on them.
Mr Malthouse: We will definitely
look at that.
Q838 Tom Brake: In the pledges that
you issued in the run-up to the election, one of those was to
tackle knife and gun crime. To quote from this document, you say
that you are going to demand that they are treated as a high priority
by the police. Was it your view therefore that they were being
treated as a low priority by the police at that point?
Mr Johnson: I certainly think,
put it this way, that the police have stepped up their operations.
If you look at Blunt 2 to which Mr Winnick and Mr Vaz have already
alluded, there is no doubt that they are putting a great deal
more effort and energy into dealing with this problem and to the
policing solutions. There are 75 knife officers now that have
been specifically dedicated to the task of moving around London
trying to deal with it. I think that is the right thing to do.
If you talk to the Commissioner, Sir Ian, he will tell you also
that he agrees as well.
Q839 Ms Buck: I want to turn to some
of the issues around stop and search. First, can I ask you this?
You make the point about boundaries and responsibly. I think we
all absolutely endorse that. Is it not also true that 98% of these
violent crimes are occurring in areas involving young people from
extremely deprived and challenged neighbourhoods? Will you endorse
the previous Mayor's strategy and will you turn it into new strategy
that will, in addition to a policing response to this, ensure
that we are directing resources at the social and economic conditions
in those neighbourhoods that are producing these gangs?
Mr Johnson: Yes, Ms Buck, that
is an absolutely vital part of what we intend to do. I think last
time I gave evidence to your committee, we spent quite a lot of
time talking about that. I do think that the so-called soft side
of this, the early intervention side, is absolutely vital if we
are going to make a long-term difference. I do not think that
this kind of activity, which will not necessary win massive plaudits
in some newspapers, will deliver results over the next three or
four years, but in five or six years I believe it will make a
huge difference. I am talking about things like re-focusing the
work of the London Development Agency to deal with youth opportunity.
Particularly we are looking at obviously the Mayor's Fund for
London by which we hope to raise a great deal of private sector
money to give to the voluntary sector that works so hard in London
to change the lives of kids, but also to work with the boroughs
that hold so much of the solution in many of the operations that
they are already supporting.
1 Figures provided by the Metropolitan Police indicate
there were 68 fatal stabbings in 2006/07 and 73 in 2007/08, http://www.met.police.uk/crimestatistics Back
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