Examination of Witnesses (Questions 840
- 859)
TUESDAY 15 JULY 2008
MR BORIS
JOHNSON AND
MR KIT
MALTHOUSE
Q840 Ms Buck: Have you delivered,
to your knowledge, the allocation of all the youth service resource
that was committed in the spring?
Mr Johnson: You are talking about
the £79 million youth offer. We are absolutely committed
to delivering that.
Q841 Ms Buck: Has is being delivered,
for example, for this summer?
Mr Johnson: Most of it is being
spent through the boroughs and, yes, to the best of my knowledge
it has been delivered.
Q842 Ms Buck: One of the issues that
has been coming up in talking to the police about problems for
example in my area is the extent to which the kids and the crews
are posting what they are doing and what they intend to do on
Beebo and Facebook and Utube. I have found, although some of this
is being monitored at a very local level, that the information
is not being tracked at a senior and strategic level within the
Met. In fact, in some instances I have had people saying to me
that they cannot monitor Facebook and Beebo because they cannot
get through the firewalls. Are you clear that at a strategic level
we are monitoring what is being done? Although a lot of that is
"wannabe" posturing, it can very easily flip over into
much more serious challenges.
Mr Johnson: That is very interesting.
I did not know that the police were having difficulty getting
through the firewalls of Beebo and Facebook, but I will certainly
take it up with them and make sure that we do step up our intelligence
on this.
Mr Malthouse: I was aware of the
problem. I know the police do look carefully at this.
Q843 Ms Buck: Now a question on stop
and search. The Youth Justice Board estimate that up to 150,000
young people carry knives in London and up to 20,000 young people
regularly carry knives. Mr Winnick was pressing you on the stop
and search figures; I think it is about 1.5% of stop and searches
actually find someone carrying a knife. We all agree that stop
and search is an important tool, so there is no question of saying
that it is not, but is it not the case, as local experience is
confirming, that an awful lot of people are stashing knives; they
are not carrying them but know where they are so that they can
go and find a knife when it comes to actually pursuing trouble?
Is it necessary now to look at, for example, enhancing safer neighbourhood
teams in areas of particular pressure and using intelligence as
well as the stop and search process so that they find those knives?
Mr Johnson: The short answer to
your question is of course "yes".
Q844 Tom Brake: On the subject of
accountability, you stated the view that the Mayor of London should
have a larger measure of democratic authority over the Metropolitan
Commissioner. Could you explain in what way?
Mr Johnson: Yes. The committee
will of course be familiar with the argument about democratic
accountability of the Commissioner for the Metropolis in London
and the technical difficulties this poses. If you look at big
city mayors in America, they tend to have some democratic authority
over the police chief. That reflects the fact that the public
hold the Mayor to account for the safety of their city, and it
is therefore only reasonable in some way for the Mayor democratically
to be able to hold the police chief to account. That is basically
the essence of the point I wanted to make. It is difficult in
London because, after all, the Commissioner is also responsible
for counter-terrorism, which is a national concern; it is difficult
to winnow out the counter-terrorism functions of the Met and therefore
to have the Commissioner solely accountable to the Mayor. At the
moment there is a system of joint accountably. The Home Secretary
and I are joint shareholders in it. We are working very well together,
I hope, and doing it that way.
Q845 Tom Brake: Would you require
a change in the legislation to give you the sort of democratic
authority which you currently do not have, I would suggest?
Mr Johnson: Let me put it this
way. In four years' time I am going to be held to account for
the safety of people in London and for the issues that we have
all been talking about. It seems to me only reasonable therefore
that there should be some measure of democratic accountability
on the part of the Commissioner for the Metropolis. I do think,
over time, we will see a reform in this respect.
Q846 Chairman: If Sir Ian Blair wants
another terms as Commissioner, will you be extending his term?
Mr Johnson: I have absolutely
no intention of discussing personnel issues today, thank you.
Q847 David Davies: One of your priorities
is to extend the powers of PCSOs. What specifically do you intend
by this? May I make one suggestion, if I may, which is to look
at giving PCSOs a warrant card since they currently do a lot more
training than special constables who all carry a warrant card
which would allow them to make an arrest if they saw an offence
being carried out. It would not necessary detract from their primary
role of making friends with people in the community.
Mr Johnson: You may or may not
remember that during the campaign I certainly thought it was pretty
crazy that a PCSO could see someone shoplifting and not be able
or have a powerful disincentive not to apprehend that person simply
because in order to do so he would have to get a warranted officer
to come from wherever he happened to be and take up a great deal
of his time. I do think it would be a good thing if PCSOs did
have greater powers. Unfortunately, it is not possible to give
them powers of arrest without effectively removing the distinction
between them and he warranted officers. What we have done is give
them greater powers to issue fixed penalty notices for minor offences
of one kind or another—nuisance parking and that kind of
thing. That has moved a small step in the direction I would think.
There is a genuine difficulty in that the more you beef up the
PCSOs, the more you run the risk of eroding the distinction between
them and the warranted officer. As you rightly allude to in your
question, one of the advantages of the PCSOs is that they do command
this special sense of trust amongst communities that know that
there is not a risk of them arresting them.
Q848 Margaret Moran: On the subject
of your priorities, you have listed in your personal pledges to
increase the number of rape crisis centres. Are you aware that
domestic violence is much more prevalent and has a much hither
attrition rate and rape crisis centres are things which I am sure
we all support. Can you tell us why you appear not to have put
a pledge on domestic violence and reduced the resource available
to tackle domestic violence?
Mr Johnson: Ms Moran, I am not
certain that is my position. I am certain that it is not. We are
determined to make sure that London is equipped not just with
one rape crisis centre in Corydon but with at least four around
the city. We are going to make sure those are funded over the
next year.
Q849 Margaret Moran: I was asking
you about domestic violence. The Greater London Domestic Violence
Project is renowned for the excellence of its work. I understand
that you have reduced, downgraded, got rid of very many of the
very important staff that are working there. Does that indicate
the level of priority and why have you done that?
Mr Johnson: As far as I know,
it is not the case. Let me say that I think you are right to say
that domestic violence should be a priority because if you tackle
domestic violence effectively you will, I think, obviate a great
number of more serious crimes and the people who could engage
in domestic violence are much more likely to go on to more serious
things.
Mr Malthouse: We are looking at
the domestic violence strategy that the GLA has that is the framework
for that work. We are looking specifically to widen it possibly
to a strategy of just violence against women, under which would
come domestic violence but also rape crisis centres and other
issues around honour-based killings and those kinds of broader
issues. Our intention is quite the reverse, not to reduce the
emphasis on violence, in particular domestic violence, but to
enhance it.
Q850 Mrs Cryer: Briefly to go back
to Tom Brake's question, Mr Mayor, can you mention whether when
you saw the Mayor of New York he talked about restorative justice
and are they using restorative justice in New York as they are
in Toronto, which has a measure of success against re-offending?
Mr Johnson: Mayor Bloomberg did
not actually mention restorative justice, no, but equally obviously
the salient example from New York is the whole broken windows
theory and zero tolerance, which we are to some extent pursuing
in the sense that I do take very seriously so-called minor crime
on buses and on the streets of London. One of the things we have
done with PCSOs is to double the size of the safer transport teams
so that by the end of the programme there will be more people
in uniform on buses than at any time in the last 25 years. We
really do want to make a difference here. We will be judged on
this. I do want public transport to be more agreeable and to be
safer.
Q851 Patrick Mercer: There have been
allegations recently, as you know, of racism at the top of the
Metropolitan Police. What impact will that have on your recruiting?
Mr Johnson: Mr Mercer, I hope
very much that it will not have any adverse impact whatever. I
think I am right in saying that over the last period the proportion
of black and ethnic minority recruits has doubled. It has gone
up very considerably. I intend to continue it on that trajectory.
I want to increase our recruitment from black and ethnic minority
communities because London has got to be policed by people who
resemble the people of London and to whom the people of London
respond and identify with. I am determined to do that. I do not
think that the couple of cases or at least one case that is currently
in play at the top of the Met will make any difference to that
agenda.
Q852 Chairman: But it must be a cause
for concern. There was a report in the Telegraph last Sunday
that up to 300 black and Asian officers are proposing to commence
legal proceedings. Even though you obviously want to make sure
you have an increase in recruitment of black and Asian people,
the fact remains that this is happening. Does it not cause you
concern, bearing in mind your very strong commitment to diversity
and the appointments that you have made at the very highest levels
of your administration?
Mr Johnson: Yes, Mr Vaz, I do
think it important that we get this right. I think the 300 figure
to which you refer is a national figure not in the Met. It is
vital that we have a police force, as I say, that is open, welcoming
and that fully reflects Britain as it is today.
Q853 Chairman: Mr Malthouse, now
that you have just taken over this post, do you think that there
is not a role for the Mayor's Office in trying to mediate between
the various parties, so that the damage to the reputation of the
Met is not continued?
Mr Malthouse: We are obviously
anxious that any employment tribunal on whatever basis resolves
satisfactorily. I am not sure it is necessarily the place of elected
or appointed politicians to get involved in personnel issues,
notwithstanding the fact that the MPA obviously has a role in
overseeing that, as I know that the MPA is a party to some of
these proceedings and therefore that is the organisation through
which the mediation should take place.
Q854 Mrs Dean: Mr Mayor, you have
set up an innovation exchange programme with New York. You mentioned
the ideas that you have had from New York about tackling crime
on public transport. What else can London learn from New York's
successful crime reduction strategies and how have those influenced
your plans?
Mr Johnson: There is one thing
that the Mayor of New York told me about that I think is a very
good idea, and that is the use of a hot line number, not to go
to the police, which would enable you, if you have a difficulty
with a pothole or whatever it happens to be, or you want to know
why some graffiti has not been cleaned up. You can go to a central
number and then we will get on to the relevant borough and sort
it out. That should help to relieve some of the pressure there
is on the police. That is a useful idea that the Mayor of New
York shared with us. The other thing they do in New York very
successfully is that they look very systematically at the statistics
with the whole CompStat system. They look at what is going on
in individual neighbourhoods and they break it down very ruthlessly.
One thing I think would be helpful in London would be if we had
a bit more public understanding of what is going on in our neighbourhoods.
There are privacy issues here, as you now, and there are difficulties
with crime mapping house by house, but I do think that crime mapping,
if done sensitively with regard to what is happening in the broad
locality, can be very useful in informing people of what is really
going on in their neighbourhood. Sometimes the news will be good
in the sense that they may have an impression of criminality which
is completely underserved. When there is bad news, it will give
people a vital tool to enable them to go to the police and say,
"We have this problem in our street. Nothing is being done
about it. You sort it out".
Q855 Mrs Dean: Could that not blight
a neighbourhood rather than help it?
Mr Johnson: It was Judge Learned
Hand who said "sunlight is the best disinfectant". I
think that is the advantage of crime mapping. Without going down
to individual house-by-house details, I do think that you can
give people a powerful tool to clean up their neighbourhoods.
Q856 Ms Buck: Some very affluent
neighbourhoods with relatively low crime figures employ private
security patrols. Are you prepared to take some of the tough decisions
that would say, "Actually those neighbourhoods do have low
crime. I am going to switch resources away from those to the areas
which on the statistics have the highest need"?
Mr Johnson: As you know, Ms Buck,
there already are formulas in place to reflect the difficulties
faced by various neighbourhoods.
Q857 Ms Buck: At a neighbourhood
level?
Mr Johnson: That would be very
much a matter for borough commanders.
Q858 Gwyn Prosser: Mayor, I want
to ask you about the 2012 Olympics and safeguarding the games
from terrorist attacks. What assurances can you give this committee
that by the time the Games come you will have sufficient police
resources and the number simply to keep the Games safe?
Mr Johnson: Mr Prosser, this is
a serious issue for concern and it was raised by David Ross, who
is my appointment to LOCOG, as something where he feels that we
need to be more alert and he is worried that they are getting
behind. I do think that it is vital that we establish very soon
what the security architecture is going to be for the Games; that
is to say, we have to know if we are going to have police milling
around; are we going to have lots of security arches; are we going
to rely on intelligence? What is our approach to policing of the
Games going to be because it will greatly affect the experience
of the punters at the Games; it will already affect the way we
lay on the Games. I am afraid that not enough work has been done
on this so far. I have had good conversations with Jacqui Smith,
the Home Secretary, about this. She agrees with me that the Olympic
Board needs to be brought fully into the ministerial discussions
about Olympic security as we go forward so that the people responsible
for putting on the Olympics, LOCOG, the ODA, know exactly what
is in the minds of ministers.
Q859 Gwyn Prosser: When do you expect
to have a fully costed budget for this policing process?Mr
Johnson: There is a budget I think of £600 million
with contingency of £238 million. Obviously we do not intend
to exceed that budget.
| 
