Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-63)
RT HON
DOUGLAS ALEXANDER
MP, MR MARTIN
DINHAM AND
MS SUSANNA
MOOREHEAD
12 NOVEMBER 2008
Q60 John Battle: Do you think there
will be specific proposals, mechanisms built into the Bank's work
now to monitor environmental outcomes, will happen? I can give
you an example. As well as a framework, I am pretty keen on the
development of technology but only at a price. In other words,
if it is so expensive that no one can afford to implement it or
use it, then we are still lost. So putting those two things together
might be the top priority. Leveraging private finance is not all
that difficult, actually, in new technology and renewables, in
my limited experience of it. What about monitoring the outcomes?
Is that going to be built in? Have you got that far into the detail
of it?
Ms Moorehead: Yes. There are six
results which as part of the Strategic Framework are going to
be monitored across the Bank. For example, increasing financing
for renewable energy and energy efficiency by 30% a year, making
sure that climate actions are integrated into urban energy, social
development strategies. I can give you the list. But I think the
critical issue is that climate change has got to be country-owned
and country-led, so the Framework creates the context within which
individual countries can pick from this list—and it is a"
la carte, not prix fixe—and then each country
will have its own results monitoring framework and the critical
ones will be aggregated across the whole Bank.
Q61 John Battle: Do you think as
well the Bank has to do a bit on its reputation in this field?
I know there is the WWF report on the carbon footprint of the
World Bank, and I think about a quarter of its resources are spent
on promoting the fossil fuel economy, as it were, as opposed to
a minority, a tiny fraction, on renewables. I think we have all
got that slightly out of sync in recent years and we ought to
have redressed that balance 25 years ago and moved on, and we
all take some responsibility for that. But do you think the World
Bank has got some work to do to set itself out as a responsible
environmental actor and also a promoter of a new sustainable approach?
Mr Alexander: Of course we want
to see an approach which acknowledges the centrality of sustainability.
Candidly, of course the Bank has more work to do. If you meet
the NGOs as regularly as I do, then at least one of them suggests
that it is like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank to
suggest that carbon financing should be put in the hands of the
World Bank! I do not think that is a fair characterisation of
the contemporary position, but I do think the Bank does need to
take this issue seriously and I am encouraged by the extent to
which Bob Zoellick has taken and will continue to take it seriously.
It does reveal some level of contradiction in some of the NGOs'
thinking who, in part of the conversation with me, one of them
says, "Is it not outrageous, Douglas, that there are these
terrible economic policy conditions being imposed by the World
Bank?" and in a second part of the conversation says, "We
want a blanket ban on all fossil fuel investment by the World
Bank," without maybe recognising that there might be a new
degree of environmental policy conditionality implicit in their
second ask. In that sense I do think, given the conversation we
have just had, about the initiative in terms of access to energy
resources for the poor that we do need to recognise that there
is a continuing need in terms of economic growth and lifting people
out of poverty to be able to provide lending to countries and
that we do ultimately recognise the right of countries to determine
for themselves the approach they take. That being said, I am encouraged
by the moves the Bank is making in terms of increasing its level
of support for renewables and support for clean technologies.
Q62 John Battle: There was a time
when environmental issues were set against development issues,
some who defended, dare I say, putting it very crudely, the trees
in the forest against the people who lived in them, and we went
through that debate in Latin America. But if I were to suggest
to you that the matrix I would have in my head in a very crude
way would be the economy in one corner, as a triangle, development
and tackling and eradicating poverty in another and sustainability
in another, and holding those together. So as well as the Bank,
welcome as it is, adapting to climate change, what about the IMF
building it into its approach so that the investment in renewable
technologies is steered through the IMF's approach to loans, and
indeed ensuring there is more private sector funding?
Mr Alexander: I think this coming
year is going to be central in the sense that the context in which
all of these conversations should be best understood, I think,
is the Copenhagen framework in the sense that at the moment politicians
right around the world are camping on the phrase "common
but differentiated responsibilities" for countries under
the post-2012 framework, comfortable in the knowledge that it
means different things to almost every politician who uses that
phrase. In that sense, is there going to be a need for effective
financing for the kind of technologies you speak about? Absolutely.
Have we as a government recognised that, partly through our support
for the Strategic Climate Fund, partly by support for the American
establishment of the Clean Technology Fund? But whether it be
the IMF or the Bank, I think both of those finance institutions
need to recognise that ultimately the key issues are going to
be decided in many ways by the UNFCCC process being led through
to Copenhagen, but against that backdrop we do need to look at
what all of the global institutions, whether it be the IMF or
the World Bank, can do to provide the financing that will be necessary
both to ensure sustainability and development. The final point
I would make, because I am conscious the division bell has gone,
is on that again Bob Zoellick, I think, has been ahead of the
crowd in arguing for, in your phrase, an inclusive and sustainable
globalisation and in that sense I think the Bank is recognising
that it has a responsibility not simply to deliver inclusive globalisation
but sustainable globalisation and our ability to deliver on that
promise is in large part going to be determined by the work we
do at Copenhagen.
Q63 Chairman: Just for the record,
Secretary of State—and we can do it in writing—we
were going to ask you about the planned publication date for your
report your relationship with the World Bank and also your strategy
paper for the period for 2008-11, both of which are late, as I
understand it, in terms of when they were due to be out. I guess,
with the division, I cannot expect you to answer that.
Mr Alexander: Let me write to
you on that. It is probably easiest.[22]
Chairman: We would like to get an answer
to that. Thank you very much indeed, as always.
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