Examination of Witness (Questions 140-153)
RT HON
TONY BLAIR
5 JUNE 2008
Q140 Daniel Kawczynski: So you envisage
that these industrial zones will be primarily populated with Palestinian
businesses?
Mr Blair: I think around the Jericho
area, although there will be others too, but it will be primarily
for Palestinian business.
Q141 Chairman: Should it not be exclusively
Palestinian business, in the sense that if these are filled up
with Israeli companies that actually will be at the expense of
Palestinian business opportunity?
Mr Blair: I do not think that
is the anticipation at all. What I would say to you about that
is it is probably for the Palestinians to decide themselves, because
sometimes they may want to do some joint ventures, but my understanding
is, basically, for the vast bulk of these industrial projects
there will be international investors, there will be Palestinian
investors. There may from time to time be Israeli investment as
well, but that will be on the basis that the Palestinians want
it and agree, and sometimes you will get a situation where they
do genuinely want it. The other thing that is quite interesting
is that there are Israeli business people who are very much on
the same line as we would be talking about and who themselves
want greater access of movement in order to be able to do business.
Q142 John Battle: Our committee is
International Development, which is different from Foreign Affairs,
and I mention that because the first reason that this committee
took an interest in Palestine in 2002, and why we went there,
was because of the poverty indicators for the Palestinian people
being lower than some of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa.
For example, on water and sanitation, to take a very practical
point, the Palestinian people are further behind in access to
clean water and sanitation than the people of Sierra Leone. I
wondered if I could pass on a practical possibility. The Quartet
did a report on projects and referred to water treatment, but
when we met with the Negotiation Support Unit, they said the real
focus, particularly in the Jordan Valley, should be access to
ground water resources. Do you know, is there any movement on
that? Secondly, and I know that you have done some work on waste
water management to get equipment for waste water processing,
sanitation, into Gaza, for example, apparently the equipment is
stuck at the checkpoints. Is there any progress on that very primary,
basic access to water? I fail to understand how you can have agriculture
without water, but you cannot have living without it either.
Mr Blair: No, and this is where
you get into the short-term versus long-term that Richard was
talking about earlier. We have now agreed with the Israelis for
provision for about 12 of these infrastructure projects to go
on—water and sanitation projects—and the Palestinian
Water Authority are now taking those forward, but there is a longer-term
question, which is what is going to be the agreement about the
use of water, particularly along the Jordan Valley, and that is
in this Area C territory which is part of the final status negotiation.
In the meantime, again, there is much more that could be done
there. That is why I would say that Israel could do more to help
in this situation. In respect of Gaza, I think the equipment has
now gone in but we have been going to and fro and to and fro on
this the whole time. There was a time when there was a problem
getting the cement in. I think the cement is now in. There is
also a Phase II of the project. We needed a letter of agreement
from the Israelis so that we could tender for that project. I
think that has now been done, so that project will be completed,
but let us be clear, it will be completed in circumstances where
at the moment there is still raw sewage being pumped out on a
daily basis and it is an appalling situation. I do not conceal
that at all.
Q143 Ann McKechin: You have spoken
a great deal this morning about changing the reality on the ground.
About 18 months ago when the committee visited the West Bank we
attended a border cross point at Hawarrah, which was, frankly,
a chaotic crossing for Palestinian goods vehicles, was highly
inefficient and was actually, frankly, insecure for the Israeli
soldiers who were trying to man it. Yet Israel is one of the most
sophisticated defence electronic engineering manufacturers in
the world, and there is no lack of capacity in Israel to actually
put in very sophisticated border points of the type that existed
in Northern Ireland before the troubles ended. What is really
happening, seriously, in the negotiations, and do you believe
the Israelis are doing enough to improve the technology at the
border crossings which they say are vital for their security?
Mr Blair: In respect of those
checkpoints that we agree the Israelis should upgrade significantly,
Hawarrah was one of those checkpoints. You are absolutely right,
there is a lot more that could be done, and that is what should
happen. There is a package that has now been agreed with the Israeli
Finance Minister as well in order to fund proper equipment. When
you visit some of those checkpoints, it is a small but significant
investment and it could make a huge difference. I know people
say that is not really what should be happening, they should be
lifted, but I think the reality is that with some of them they
are going to stay for a time, at least, and what is important
is that they are significantly improved; but, yes, we could do
that, and that is precisely one of the things that was in our
package.
Q144 Ann McKechin: You mentioned
earlier improvements in the tourist industry in Bethlehem. Could
you tell me which checkpoint is going to be used for tourists,
and why would this be a different one and a better one than that
for the ordinary Palestinians who have to try and get in and out
of Bethlehem every day?
Mr Blair: Again, that is a good
point. Why should it be different? The reality is that at the
moment when the wall is there and you have got a situation where
there are long queues of people to get in and out, it actually
matters to have a fast-track for tourists, so that is what we
are doing, because it helps, but in time to come, obviously, we
want that to apply to ordinary Palestinians too.
Q145 Ann McKechin: Should you not
be applying humanitarian standards that if you are sick, if you
are ill and disabled or elderly, you should have first access
rather than someone who is fit and healthy and can stand for two
or three hours in the sunshine when it is 95 degrees?
Mr Blair: Of course. Again, one
of the things that we are in discussion with the Israelis about—and
this is part of how we change the situation—is to start
discriminating and differentiating between your ordinary person
and the person who is in chronic need. Again, the reality is that
for the moment you will not stop there being a checkpoint on that
part of Bethlehem going into Jerusalem—that is not going
to happen—but certainly people should be allowed swifter
access for humanitarian reasons and, in any event, it is important
for the tourist industry because, as a result, as I say, of what
has happened in Bethlehem over the last few months, the tourist
industry is significantly revived there and that is important.
Overall, what is happening to the West Bank economy—and,
again, I say all this against the background of the fact that
Gaza is in an extremely difficult situation for all the reasons
we have just been through and not enough is being done to help
the West Bank economy—it has gone from a contraction but
it is now growing. In fact, the overall World Bank projection
for Palestine this year is three per cent, and that includes Gaza.
The truth is, if we manage to get these restrictions progressively
lifted, you could get that figure up to probably 10, 11, 12 per
cent, and then you would be starting to see a real change for
people, and that will make a huge difference to them. It is a
very difficult thing to say, and we found this difficulty with
the Bethlehem Investment Conference: on the one hand you have
to admit the situation is extremely difficult and challenging;
on the other hand you do not actually want to say to people, "Do
not come here. Do not come and invest", and the truth of
the matter is in many ways, because of what Prime Minister Fayyad
has been doing, there are elements of the Palestinian economy
that are improving, it is just that so much more could be done
and should be done.
Q146 Chairman: We are close to the
end of our session, but I hope it is acceptable to you if we take
a quick supplementary from Stephen Crabb and some questions from
Hugh Bayley.
Mr Blair: Yes.
Q147 Mr Crabb: It concerns an issue
we have not touched on this morning. The Israeli Government, I
understand, recently announced they would increase by 40 per cent
the number of Palestinian workers allowed to come and work back
in Israel. How quickly do you envisage that becoming a reality
on the ground and, longer-term, seeing the return of really significant
numbers of Palestinians working back inside Israel, as they used
to, and the rebuilding of some shared economic interest there?
Mr Blair: One, it is important,
because it helps the Palestinian people; two, I think it is important
and, again, this is part of our agreement with them that some
of those people should be able to overnight there, and so on,
because it is important for their work, and three, yes, in time,
I hope that then improves and increases. That is where, again,
Jenin is important, because there are now people coming across
the border and into Jenin for the first time in several years.
So that is important to do for sure.
Q148 Hugh Bayley: What security outcomes
would you expect to see from the Berlin Conference later this
month?
Mr Blair: I think Berlin is really
important; it is a very important moment, and I think we need
the following. We need, first of all, a proper plan for the Palestinian
security forces, both for their training, their equipping and
their reform. Secondly, we need the EUPOL COPPS[3]
proposals, which is for the civil police to be implemented. Thirdly,
we need the proposals for prisons and courts and judicial reform
to be set out and funded and then implemented, because the security
picture is not just about people with weapons taking on other
people with weapons, it is also about other procedures for prison,
for courts, for prosecution, for the whole panoply of measures
associated with the functioning of the criminal justice system.
Q149 Hugh Bayley: What particularly would
you expect the Palestinian Authority to agree to in order to create
the sort of situation which, as you described earlier, would enable
Israel to lift the occupation or take steps in that direction?
Mr Blair: They need, and I think
they will, to be fair, to agree to the reform of those security
forces as well as their proper funding and equipping and training,
and they need to be in a position where in a few months time,
building out from what is happening in Jenin now, we can then
take another area and start to do the same, and this is the purpose
of the strategy we have outlined. This is very difficult for the
Palestinians, because sometimes they are taking on people that
they have been alongside in previous times, but the fact is a
state is not just a geographical territory, you have to have one
rule of law, you have got to have one authority, you have got
to have one proper system of law enforcement, and for the Palestinians
this is where the work that President Abbas, who is also very
committed to this, and Prime Minister Fayyad are doing is so important.
It has got to happen. This has really got to happen.
Q150 Hugh Bayley: In any negotiation—and
you know this from Northern Ireland—a step taken, a statement
made by one side, needs to be reciprocated. You have already said
that the Israeli security apparatus has a devastating effect on
the quality of life for Palestinians and, rightly or wrongly,
tends to fuel feeling of desperation and anger. So how can Israel
be persuaded to make specific changes to their security apparatus
in order to improve the lives of Palestinians and create conditions
for progress with the peace negotiation?
Mr Blair: I think that they can
be persuaded to do that because I believe that, as I say, the
majority of sensible Israelis know that there is no alternative
to a two-state solution but a big fight continuing over a long
period of time and throughout the whole region. So I think that
most sensible Israelis know that a two-state solution is there.
Again, the impact of the Intifada and the breakdown of the negotiations
between President Clinton, Prime Minister Barak and President
Arafat a few years back has been to leave the peace camp in Israel
feeling it does not have a lot to go on, and rebuilding that confidence
is very important. What I actually think about this situation,
which is why calming and helping Gaza is so important, is if you
have just got sufficient time and space to show that things could
happen, you could get a momentum established that would accelerate
quite quickly. This is what I find very frustrating. I am absolutely
convinced that if everything else remained calm, let us say we
got on with these economic and social projects, it would make
a big difference over a period of time. The trouble is everything
else is not going to remain the same. So the point about it is
that, if we were able to rebuild some confidence and if people
felt there was a real strategic grip on this situation, namely
we have a political negotiation that is meaningful, we have a
security capability built amongst the Palestinians that does the
business and we have genuine change on the weight of the occupation
without Gaza disrupting it, you could start to move this situation
and you could move it, I think, quicker than people think, but
all of those things is an open question at the moment and that
is why it hangs in the balance and certainly, I think, is why
it is natural you should start with Gaza today. I think the danger
of Gaza is not just the terrible situation for the people but
that it is used, in a sense, to overwhelm anything else that might
be good that is happening. I am not naive about this. I know that
if I built an industrial park up at Jalame but meanwhile Gaza
is in turmoil, for your ordinary Palestinian they are looking
at one state. They are not looking at two states—Gaza and
West Bank—they will get one state. They feel a sense of
responsibility and solidarity with their people.
Q151 Hugh Bayley: I agree, from my
visits to the region, that a majority on both sides want peace,
and the only prospect for that is to have a two-state solution,
but the majority who want peace are marginalised time and again
by acts of violence, whether it is a missile being fired over
the border into Israel or the use of violence by the Israeli security
forces. You can take the parallels with Northern Ireland too far,
but it was undoubtedly the case in Northern Ireland that community
groups on both sides—the Falls Road and the Shankhill—started
saying, "We want peace", and they reduced the political
space within which the terrorists operated. You have talked about
a series of high-level talks you are involved with, but I think
there is a need to nurture and strengthen community organisations
of moderate Palestinians and moderate Israelis to try and nurture
that space for discussing a future of co-existence. To what extent
would you like to see DFID and other donors working in this area
and what should they be doing?
Mr Blair: I think it is a very
worthwhile exercise for them to work on. If you take an organisation,
for example, like One Voice, which is for the young people, who
are lovely young people, if that is the future on both sides it
would be bright. I think it is very important to encourage a sort
of civil society exchange at the same time, and I think that those
are things that are easy to do and very worthwhile.
Q152 Chairman: Thank you. Can I perhaps
draw two threads together and conclude this session. I think as
far as Gaza is concerned, the comments that you and others have
made, for the people of Gaza, they are looking to the international
community for their humanitarian rights, not for the consent of
Israel or Hamas or anybody else. So what is left on the ground
is what more will we be able to do to actually deliver what the
people of Gaza have a right to expect from the international community?
In relation to your project, particularly in the West Bank, it
has been expressed to us that there is a danger of legitimising
the facts on the ground. Nobody is questioning the intention,
but actually, effectively, creating almost two parallel universes:
a network of Israeli settlements with their own communications,
and a new network of new Palestinian developments with their own
parallel communications, neither of which meets, which I think
many people would feel was taking us further away from a two-state
solution. In that context, in terms of the agreements you have
negotiated, do you think that they have more chance than previous
access and movement agreements which have not actually been fulfilled?
We sat in probably the same hotel as you did in Bethlehem just
before Christmas, the year before last, with two per cent occupancy
and I think many of us reflected on the fact that the first Christmas
there was no room in the inn; here we were in Bethlehem with an
inn full of rooms and nobody in them. You say you are going to
unlock that but it has to be in ways that benefit the people of
Bethlehem and not just the people of Jerusalem.
Mr Blair: In that hotel where
I was two or three weeks ago, the hotel occupancy is now over
40 per cent so it has changed. There are changes that are there.
You know this issue about legitimising the occupation, to be absolutely
frank nobody on the Palestinian side has ever put this to me as
a serious point because I think they understand very well. Yes,
of course, in the end they want the settlements out and the outposts
away, and so on and so forth, but they do not ignore the fact
that if you can get economic projects going and open up some of
the access within the Palestinian side that is obviously of enormous
importance and help to Palestinians. I would go back to the central
point about all this. A strategy for resolving this has all the
different bits of it operating in an integrated way. In other
words, if you take the politics but do not take the security,
it will not work. If you take the politics and the security but
there is nothing happening to give the Palestinians hope on the
ground, it will not work. If you leave Gaza as it is, there is
a danger that Gaza, quite apart from the misery of the people
there, overwhelms everything else. My response would be that I
would never suggest that building an industrial park or new houses
or municipal projects is a substitute for the politics, the security
or sorting out Gaza but I do think it is an important part of
it. I also think for ordinary Palestinians, and again there are
parallels here with Northern Ireland, the greater the chance of
prosperity the greater the stake people get in a fledging peace
process. The other thing to remember about Palestine is the age
of the people. I forget the precise percentage but the majority
of the people are under the age of 25 in the West Bank and Gaza.
If these young people start to think they have a chance of a job
then that is the best way you can start to diminish some of the
contrary forces that are pulling them into extremist groups that,
in the end, do not offer them any way forward at all. I think
everything should be put together and the single most important
thing for the international community, including America, is just
to focus the whole time on it. One of the things that is really
important is that through to the end of the year, and into next
year when there is a new American president, the focus is kept
on this all the time and not to diminish it in any shape or form.
It would be a real problem if the new American president takes
a couple of years to work their way into this. One thing I am
absolutely sure of is this issue is even more important than I
thought it was when I was Prime Minister of this country. It is
fundamental to sorting out the region, it is fundamental to peace
between the world of Islam and the world of the West and it is
fundamental, obviously and most importantly, to a decent future
for Israelis and Palestinians.
Q153 Chairman: As an International
Development Committee rather than a Foreign Affairs Committee,
our concerns are for the plight of the people and their potential.
Our frustration is frankly if there were peace there would be
no need for any international development support for the people
of Palestine. That is our fundamental frustration and the money
could go to the people for whom it is required.
Mr Blair: That is what the Palestinians
would want too.
Chairman: If you have any reflections
on the exchanges we have had, we will be producing the report
before the summer recess so I hope you will feel free to comment
because sometimes things occur afterwards. Thank you again for
enabling us to have this session, and particularly for accommodating
this particular date given that the Committee were due to be in
China but because of the earthquake we are not.
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