Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 22)
TUESDAY 16 OCTOBER 2007
MRS THORAYA
AHMED OBAID
AND DR
FRANCISCO SONGANE
Q20 Richard Burden: Is there any
evidence that it is working? I understand what you are saying,
that the decisions are national decisions, but if you see your
role as collecting the data to look at the incidence of unsafe
abortions in particular countries, firstly, if I am right that
the highest incidence of those are in those countries with the
most restrictive laws, where technically abortion may be legal
but in practical terms it is illegal, if that is where the concentration
is and you present those countries with that evidence, what happens?
Does it have any impact?
Mrs Obaid: I agree with you—we
know it is a serious issue we are trying to deal with. The issue
is not only where it is legal it can mean "illegal"
in a sense, but also there is no information about the rights
of women who have problems or will even meet the criteria. This
is an area that is dark, let us put it that way. Women do not
know that if they have a problem they can access these services.
Even when they have unsafe abortions they do not know that they
can go to the health system to save their lives; and if they do
they are badly treated. It is just not simply the access and having
the right; it is the whole system where it is a taboo. You are
penalised if you have an unsafe abortion. Women are penalised
and so on. I remember Fred Sai, who is an African from Ghana and
a leader in the area of sexual reproductive health, said that
the only human organ that has entered the penal system is the
uterus. It is a very strong statement when we realise what we
are saying. What we tell governments when we work with them, at
least where it is working, where it is legal, is to let us ensure
that the health system can provide lifesaving --- but then you
need the civil society to inform and to advocate, so women know
that they can have this access. This is still a dark hole. We
are all working on it. It is not an easy one because you also
have other groups that are anti-rights for women to access safe
abortion.
Dr Songane: I concur with you
fully. The other element here which is important, even in those
places where it is legal, is the stigma. To be seen as someone
who went to seek those services for the society is still a bad
thing. This stigmatisation is important to the woman. As you say,
to inform people, if we bring the statistics or whatever we have
and show to the country, not only to the leaders but the public,
and say, "This is the situation. It is a complex issue but
we cannot hide. We have to deal with it. It is accounting for
about 13 % of the deaths, apart from the disabilities, so this
has to be addressed". The other element before the departmental
committee is to use you as leaders to help address this issue.
What is complicating now is the threat from some countries to
remove resources for basic care because you just mention reproductive
health, you just mention abortion. You did not do anything wrong
but because you put that word in one of your papers you might
get as a consequence the withdrawal of resources. This is being
said publicly without any counterargument from the same level
of institution. We ask you as Members of Parliament, this country
is taking the right address in relation to abortion, but you should
help us to counter those arguments of threat, of intimidation,
not leaving the countries addressing their own issues. This is
a much worse situation we are being faced with now. Even institutions,
which should provide that technical advice and direction to the
countries, are shy and afraid of putting those things on the table
to discuss. We need to come out of this and say, "This is
a problem and we have to act". The issue of the target of
the sexual reproductive health services available to all women
is a fundamental issue if you want to address abortion. Why do
you have abortion: because there is a pregnancy. You should avoid
the pregnancy. Where will the woman or the girl get the means
to avoid the pregnancy without contraception, without local reproductive
health services, without the services for the youth? The group
of 15-17 teenage mothers are most at risk from abortion and from
complications of pregnancy and we are not providing the services
for them to avoid running into that risk. Those are the issues.
It is a comprehensive issue, but it is complex. We are not dealing
with it in a light manner, but it has to be addressed. We would
ask you for your support.
Q21 Hugh Bayley: The question of
empowering women of course is absolutely essential and it does
not apply just to abortion, it applies to pregnancy, it applies
to family relations, childbirth and child health. My question
is: how do you, first of all, empower women's knowledge about
these things; and, secondly, and I would say more importantly,
money is power; if you are talking about empowering women you
just put money, resources, into women's hands; how do you do that?
Should you have a pregnancy kit for every woman, which includes
a $20 note? How do you actually give women power to control the
resources which are there for obstetric and maternity services?
Mrs Obaid: If I can quickly refer
to a previous question. What Dr Songane has said is true. Since
2002 one major donor has not paid UNFPA any voluntary contributions.
That is a fact. The words "sexual and reproductive health"
are interpreted as euphemisms for abortion. That is an issue we
face on a regular basis.
Q22 Richard Burden: Can we know which
donor that is? I think we may have an idea, but just for the record.
Mrs Obaid: It is the United States.
The other issue that is really very worrying is that now there
is quite an attack on sex education in schools for young people.
If you take that out of the school and you just have education
on abstinence only and so on, we are further endangering teenagers
in terms of early pregnancies etc. This is a new environment and
we all have to deal with it. In terms of how do we empower women
to be able to have the economic power that you are saying, we
at UNFPA do some work with others who have the knowledge and the
skills to do economic schemes of different types. We try to partner
with ILO[10]
and others who can do that; lots of the NGOs; and microcredit
and so on is part of our work but we look where there is microcredit
and we integrate sexual reproductive health information and services
in it and so on. Also empowering women is having the money, but
part of it is having the knowledge that it is her right, and that
is dealing with the socio-cultural issues; and for the community
to be able to understand that right to health is a right and women
have to have access it. That requires working at the community
level and working with local leaders, with the religious leaders
and different ones to be able to get the message through the local
set-up, to understand the rights of women to health education
income etc. One area that we have not touched at all, and that
also is the disempowering area, is the issue of sexual violence
against women, especially in fragile states or conflict areas.
That is the most disempowering element. The fact that we get countries
where such violence takes place and perpetrators are still loose
is a very tragic thing. Here I think the UK can help in ensuring
that support is given not only to women who are victims of sexual
violence but also that there is prevention of violence, which
means working with the military; with the police, which we do,
to educate them about it and so on. If you want to empower them
the first thing is that they should stop being violated. That
is a long process that a few countries are focussing on but not
sufficiently to be able to empower women. That is the other side
of your question. We empower through economics, through education,
through partnerships, microcredit whatever, but we also have to
deal with what is disempowering them—which is domestic violence
and violence against women in wars and conflicts and so on.
Chairman: Can I thank both of you. It
is clear to the Committee that you are two very powerful champions
of the rights of women in this area. You have challenged us, I
guess, to some extent to join your campaign. All I can say is
that the Committee is quite shocked really about the statistics
and, much more to the point, the individual suffering that is
hidden within these statistics. That is one of the reasons we
want to do this report so that in some small way we can perhaps
increase awareness and reinforce what our Government is trying
to do in this area and internationally. Thank you very much, fortuitous
as it was that this conference was taking place, for coming to
give this evidence—I think it has been extremely helpful
as a start to our Inquiry. I thank you both very much for coming.
10 International Labour Organization (ILO) Back
|
