Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR GERRY
MCALEER
AND MR
BOB CROMIE
16 MAY 2007
Q80 Lady Hermon: What efforts have
been made actually by your Association to try to encourage more
women to come into the Association?
Mr McAleer: We have got no control
over who the Department employs; we have no input into that, we
are not consulted on that.
Q81 Chairman: That is not really
Lady Hermon's point. This is a voluntary Association, governors
are not obliged to join, they pay a subscription and they are
members of an Association consisting of governors; they do not
have to join. What do you do, when a woman governor is appointed,
or somebody to get governor grade is appointed, is a woman, what
do you do to make her feel that she would be welcome and able
to make a contribution to your Association?
Mr McAleer: When we have had female
members of the Prison Governors Association we have tried to get
them to put themselves forward for posts. I can think of one in
particular. There are not that many of them. One of the members
that we had was not really interested in coming into office; also,
she left the Governors Association. A problem that we have is
not just gender-specific, we have great difficulty, back home,
getting governors actually to go into the Association. This is
one of the reasons why, to come back to something that you brought
up earlier, we have been in this job for so long, because we just
cannot get people, let alone females; but we do make them welcome.
Q82 Lady Hermon: Why do you think
it is that you have such difficulty in recruiting people to the
Association?
Mr Cromie: The POA are very powerful
in Northern Ireland and because the vast majority, with all promotions
these days, have been coming up through the ranks, they come into
the governor grade rank as a POA member. It is quite a protective
cloak they have around them and it is hard, at times, to seduce
them away from that cloak, which is what we have to do.
Q83 Lady Hermon: How would you describe
your relationship with the POA?
Mr Cromie: Must better than it
was.
Mr McAleer: Yes.
Q84 Lady Hermon: Really?
Mr McAleer: We have a good relationship
with Finlay Spratt, the Chairman. In England, it is interesting,
because I watch the dynamics over here, it is not such a good
relationship over here. You are asking why we have a good relationship
and we just always have had. I think the question should be why
they have not got a good relationship over here. Why would we
not have a good relationship?
Mr Cromie: It is probably down
to the size thing, as well. We are not big; the POA in Northern
Ireland is not that big either.
Q85 Lady Hermon: Moving to Hydebank,
as the Chairman has intimated, we visited the Hydebank Prison,
what concerns do you have about women sharing the same site as
young offenders; in fact, is it appropriate that women prisoners
should be on the same site?
Mr Cromie: I worked in Hydebank
up until recently. I think it is inappropriate, in my view and
the general view of the PGA, but we have only three sites in Northern
Ireland, that is the reality of it. The women's prison in Maghaberry
was a failed entity; the treatment of the female prisoners there,
in report after report, was castigated, for whatever reason. I
was not in Maghaberry so I cannot comment on that. Hydebank was
a fresh start for female prisoners within the Northern Ireland
Prison Service. Having said that, my understanding of it is that
essentially it was designed to be a relatively temporary measure
until such time as a new, purpose-built establishment was built
for the females. Having worked in Hydebank for five of the last
six years, my perception is that the Governor and staff there
have made a decent fist of a not great situation. I think, if
you look at Hydebank's record on self-harm, suicide prevention
and actually working with the female inmates there and enhancing
the regime, the activity hours, all the indicators that you use
to see if you are doing a particularly good job or not, they are
all quite positive. Having said that, it is by no means ideal,
and whenever the new prison, if we get a new prison, comes to
be built, possibly some consideration will be given to building
a female prison on that site, which I should think they should
do.
Q86 Chairman: Are you aware of the
new facilities there; have you seen them?
Mr Cromie: No, I have not.
Q87 Chairman: I think it would be
fair to say that the Committee was quite impressed by the quality
of the facilities, and a lot of money has been and is being spent
for a relatively small number; the unit cost per woman prisoner,
in global terms, is horrifyingly high, something like £90,000
a year, we were told, so a lot of money. Therefore, are you advocating
that actually all of that should be abandoned because of the theoretical
undesirability of the adjacent young offenders?
Mr Cromie: I do not think it is
particularly a good idea to have female offenders, of all ages,
in quite close proximity to young male offenders. It is awkward
for management to run two entirely different regimes within the
same establishment, and you have pressure groups coming at you,
looking after the female side of things, and there is the young
offenders' house, and it is extremely small-scale. At the end
of the day, there are only 38 female offenders in there.
Q88 Chairman: Would you move the
females or would you move the young offenders?
Mr Cromie: I would move the females.
Q89 Rosie Cooper: I share your view
that it is unsuitable but I would like to explore with you the
effect on and, if you like, the handling of the female prisoners.
While we were there we looked at some construction training, painting,
various schemes like that, where they were gaining skills. When
we asked the staff about that there was an indication that there
was not really any interest, but when we examined it further,
when we asked further questions, it was clear that really it was
not an option. It was not an option because once they had gained
the skill to paint, or plaster, or do woodwork, whatever it was,
then in order to put it into practice they would work around the
site and they would have to do that alongside the young men, and
it was just never going to happen. The truth is that the female
prisoner population who are in that centre are not getting as
good as we give, even if that is limited, other prisoners and
that is not acceptable, surely?
Mr Cromie: No. I would agree with
you.
Q90 Chairman: Do you agree not only
with the proposition but with the detail of Rosie Cooper's questions;
just for the record?
Mr Cromie: I am not entirely convinced
by what you say about the female prisoners learning a skill, in
that the population is so diverse and there is quite a high turnover
in the female population. Up until recently, whenever I left there,
one of the figures quoted at us was that half the lifer population
there were very unhappy, at Hydebank, there were two lifers, one
of whom hated the place, and this was quoted at us quite a few
times. I think it is very difficult to cater for a female population
which ranges from 17 to 77, to make sweeping generalisations like
that; it is difficult, given the nature of the population, they
have so many needs, when you look at that age range, of 50 to
60 years.
Q91 Rosie Cooper: Absolutely I accept
that, but I was making the point, if you like, an exceptional
point, using an example we actually saw to make a wider point,
which is that the women do not have full access to the schemes
and skills that they would have if it were an all-women prison
and therefore they are losing out. The women we saw obviously
were in need of all manner of help, medical through skill-set,
and I do not believe that we are skilling them so that they leave
and do not come back again. One of the ladies actually made the
comment that the bad bit was being in there, and I said, "Well,
how about you don't come back again?" I did not think I saw
enough of a channelling of energy into skilling them, I do not
mean just in painting but in their general life skills, so that
they were equipped for life outside?
Mr Cromie: The only thing I can
say, from my time in Hydebank, is that it was very much work in
progress. As the management, we had to hit the ground running,
whenever they came to us, and it has been a very steep learning
curve for the Governor of Hydebank, Steve Davis, with regard to
the women. I think the staff there have made extremely good progress,
but we are nowhere near getting it right, and Hydebank have a
long way to go. I take exactly what you say, and it is my view,
and it is the view of the PGA Committee, that there should be
a separate establishment for females, but the numbers are so small
that, economically, is it viable?
Q92 Chairman: I want to move us on;
before I do so can I ask you one question on the whole Hydebank
set-up. One of the things which struck us was that there was a
clear decision not to wear a uniform, on the part of the prison
officers, a Governor's decision. I think it would be fair to say—I
must not put words into the mouths of any of my colleagues—I
think there was some degree of concern that one could not always
see who was an inmate and who was a prison officer. I just wonder
if you have any views on that?
Mr Cromie: Certainly if you are
working with young offenders, people working in civilian clothing,
in our view, is to be encouraged, it helps build relationships,
it helps break down barriers; you do not see the uniform, you
see the person. It is my personal belief, from when I worked in
Hydebank, that it helped relationships within Hydebank for the
staff not to wear uniform, there was not that barrier between
staff and inmates.
Chairman: Thank you. That is very helpful.
Q93 Mr Murphy: Just to follow on
from Rosie's very well made point on education and training for
women and young male offenders, is the reality not that it would
be almost impossible, no matter what the resources were, to be
able to deliver to both groups, because you need to keep them
separate; and, currently, how do you manage the timetable of education
and training for both groups?
Mr Cromie: The timetabling; a
dedicated, new education block was built in Hydebank, I have to
say, for the males only and then the females came in. It has been
a mixture of certain areas being adapted for female pursuits,
essentially cooking, life skills, those sorts of areas, and the
timetabling then was worked in, and my perception, when I was
there, was that it was working reasonably successfully. Probably
one of the hardest things for a governor to do within the current
set-up of vocational training delivery is that, the outside market
forces, the workers that are required on the outside, it is quite
hard to source those skills on the inside to provide them for
the inmates. For example, one of the things which are needed an
awful lot at this moment in time in Northern Ireland is welders,
they are just providing all the gas pipelines in Northern Ireland
at the moment, and to source people to train, for example, as
welders, you are going to have to change a shop, there is an awful
lot of expenditure, then we have to go out and find somebody who
can teach welding. In the interim we are employing somebody for
life who delivers, for example, painting and decorating. Our organisation
is a bit of a monolith and it is hard at times to adapt quickly
to the change in demands of the outside environment, with regard
to prisoners.
Mr McAleer: You asked a question
about resourcing, if you have an unlimited amount, which I think
is what you are getting at, of resourcing, would it impact at
all; of course, the short answer to that is, yes. But we live
in the real world and already there is a lot of constraints on
the Northern Ireland budget, we already have the highest costs
per prison place and if you diverted an enormous amount of funds
into women's training, for instance, yes, you would impact on
it, and it would not matter too much about the site because where
the women are they are isolated from men. If you had unlimited
resources you could build higher walls; there is a whole lot of
things you could do if you had unlimited amounts of money, but
the thing about that is then the cost per prisoner place goes
up. One of the biggest things that happens to governors is we
are frequently quoted what happens in England, the cost per prisoner
place in this jail is that and the cost per prisoner place in
that jail is that, and what happens, for governors, it becomes
extremely difficult to cope with that. In England the prisoner
population is about 70,000, so you get economies of scale and
we can never compete with that.
Q94 Chairman: I hope you never will.
Mr McAleer: The point about it
is, if you throw unlimited amounts of money at it, yes, of course,
you will impact it, but in the real world that is not going to
happen, is it, because we will always have constraints on the
budget. The Director General at this minute in time, his bonus
is based on how he sticks within his budget, and, if you look
at the corporate plan, the cost per prisoner place is one of the
crucial things in that; that is in there, that we have got to
reduce the cost per prisoner place. How can you do that if you
are going to resource things to the extent that you have been
indicating?
Q95 Mr Murphy: I was not suggesting
that. What I was suggesting was would it not be physically impossible,
given the make-up of the site, to be able to train adequately
both groups of people, currently?
Mr McAleer: No; not if you have
the money to do it. You could do it but you would be employing
lots of people to give all the skills.
Q96 Chairman: What about the whole
question of family-centred visits; we were told of the arrangements,
we did not actually have a chance to see visiting in operation,
I hope we will when we come to you next month because it is a
very important part of prison. Do you have particular views here
and do you feel that the visitor facilities could be, should be,
expanded, improved, or are they more or less adequate as they
are, in your view?
Mr Cromie: Family-centred visits
began in Magilligan, it started up there, and it is run, to a
certain extent, over lunch hours, on visits, mainly at weekends.
It is some down-time for the mother, she can get away from the
children and leave the children usually with the father who is
incarcerated, there is time for him to bond with them and take
a bit of parental responsibility. Since then Maghaberry and Hydebank
do it to a lesser extent. It is a brilliant idea; very good. It
is very much in its infancy and we are keeping a close eye on
it to see how it goes. We would love to expand it. Given the way
the numbers are growing, certainly in Magilligan and Maghaberry,
visits in Maghaberry it is working to almost full capacity and
it would be difficult to see how an expansion could come about
unless more money were made available, more accommodation made
available; it is getting pretty near as far as it can go.
Q97 Chairman: You are in favour of
the concept, you are encouraged by the results to date and you
would like to see it continue?
Mr Cromie: Absolutely.
Chairman: Can I move to another aspect
of separation and bring in Mr Campbell.
Q98 Mr Campbell: As I understand
it, the new regime in terms of separating the paramilitary prisoners
came into effect at the end of last year. Has there been sufficient
time now to give a conclusive outcome on how that is working,
five or six months on?
Mr Cromie: I think it is early
days yet. It seems to be slightly more relaxed though, they are
spending a bit more time out of their cells, but the main success,
shall we say, of separation has been that the area in which they
live has been relatively tightly controlled. Whilst we have eased
up slightly on that, we do not want to rush our fences, we have
made that mistake in the past and I would not be too keen on any
more relaxation for a while, until we see just how things settle
down. The two separated sides, shall we say, are at times a little
bit volatile, because of their make-up.
Q99 Chairman: You will give us a
chance to see this when we come?
Mr Cromie: Yes, we will.
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