Examination of Witnesses (Question 160-179)
MR BRIAN
COULTER AND
MR DAVID
MCCALL
6 JUNE 2007
Q160 Sammy Wilson: I am a little
confused, Mr Coulter. First of all, you say that you believe your
office is under-resourced and yet at the same time you are seeking
to include the remit of the Probation Service, which of course
does not have custodial powers or anything like that. It seems
to me that if resources are tight then you will want to concentrate
on the prison end of the thing rather than simply increase the
number? Secondly, you have said that quite a lot of the complaints
are trivial. I suspect, because all of us get correspondence from
prisoners about complaints and I must say that most of the ones
I get, though they are always followed up, are what sometimes
I think are quite trivial as well, but prisoners have got the
time, they are in custody, and they make these complaints. With
all the various methods you have outlined to us is there not a
danger that you are actually increasing your own workload by encouraging
prisoners to come through you rather than through the Northern
Ireland Prison Service complaints procedure, in other words probably
generating a workload which could be dealt with, as you have said,
more appropriately by the Prison Service itself?
Mr Coulter: On the first point,
might I just say that I hope I said that some complaints are trivial,
not that most complaints are trivial, and of course the issue
of triviality, as I am sure the Members will agree, really is
quite different in a prison context because, as I was attempting
to demonstrate with the issue of food, for example, what might
be a very small thing to me, in a prison environment can be a
very major issue and can lead to huge discontent and management
problems for staff. But on the issue of whether that danger exists
of encouraging people to come directly to me, absolutely not.
First of all, my literature makes it absolutely clear what people
are supposed to do, but fundamentally a complaint will be judged
by myself and my department as being ineligible if it has not
gone through the prison complaints process first of all. They
must exhaust the Prison Service complaints process before they
can come to my office. I will not look at it at all. So there
is no danger of that at all, I assure you.
Q161 Sammy Wilson: But if it has
been through the prison process you will automatically take it?
Mr Coulter: I will not automatically
take it, because first of all it has to satisfy other eligibility
criteria for example- it cannot be a third party complaint. We
do get solicitors coming to the office raising issues on behalf
of prisoners. We will not take those sorts of complaints. I will
not take a complaint and I am not able to deal with a complaint
if it is a matter of judicial proceedings, that sort of issue.
So I will not automatically, but we will generally take them if
they satisfy the eligibility criteria.
Lady Hermon: I think it would be helpful
to the Committee, Chairman, if we actually had copies of the leaflet.
Chairman: That would be very helpful,
thank you. Could we move on to Mr Campbell, because he wants to
talk about the prison estate.
Q162 Stephen Pound: Could I just
ask a question on that point, before we move on, please? I read
Steele and tried to work out whether the role was defined and
I think it was more almost symbolic in Steele and I congratulate
you and Mr McCall for the way in which you have actually set out
the terms of a completely new organisation, but I am in real confusion
here as to the various cross-referencing. If an assault takes
place in prison, it is investigated by the PSNI. If someone has
a complaint about the PSNI, they go to the Police Ombudsman, but
they then seem to have a second bite of the cherry in coming to
you. I am just wondering, because it is the sort of flow chart
of this that I cannot see clearly in my mind, because there seems
to be a crossover on a whole range of issues. Is it self-selection
on your part, or is there a statutory definition of what triggers
your involvement other than a prisoner, or significantly an ex-prisoner,
contacting you directly?
Mr Coulter: First of all, I would
not be dealing with ex-prisoners, except in the sense I mentioned
earlier in terms of giving information to ex-prisoner groups or
prisoner representative groups. We do not take complaints from
ex-prisoners.
Q163 Stephen Pound: In the briefing
note we have it states that your role is to investigate complaints
submitted by individual prisoners and ex-prisoners.
Mr Coulter: I was just going on
to say unless, of course, it has been within a very, very recent
period of time.
Q164 Stephen Pound: I am relieved
to hear that.
Mr Coulter: In fact I cannot actually
recall, in the two years, that I have actually dealt with an ex-prisoner
complaint. It simply has not arisen. But the issue about working
with other bodies and crossover I think is a very fair issue to
ask about. I have some serious issues but, not really in relation
to the issue of the Police Service for NI, because I actually
cooperate very closely with them, particularly where I meet them,
and the interface where I meet them most is in the investigation
of deaths in custody. Primacy is accorded to the criminal investigation
carried out on behalf of the Coroner, by the Police Service for
Northern Ireland, and my role is looking at the circumstances
of the death with regard to the actions or omissions of the Northern
Ireland Prison Service, but we collaborate extremely closely and
we share information. If I might use an example of another, if
you want, oversight agency, the Northern Ireland Health and Safety
Executive, I have currently agreed to conduct a joint investigation
with that Executive in relation to a recent death in Magilligan
Prison. So we collaborate very closely to avoid those kinds of
crossover issues. I am not sure if that has answered your question.
Stephen Pound: It is helpful, thank you.
Q165 Mr Campbell: Just on the adequacy
of the prison estate, first of all have there been complaints
from prisoners about the inadequacy of the estate in the general
sense, not wishing to get into individual complaints? If you were
looking at a pie chart, is there a number of complaints, for example,
about Magilligan, about the H-Blocks, about issues at Maghaberry?
Mr Coulter: Yes. There are few
specific complaints from prisoners about the prison estate. There
are related complaints, for example complaints about food that
quite clearly relate to the inadequacies of the current kitchen
provision at Maghaberry Prison, which I am glad to say is due
for a considerable investment very shortly, but it is very inadequate
at the moment and gives rise to the poor serving of meals. I have
had to be critical of one complaint, for example, of not conforming
with acceptable hygiene standards, and so on, the way meals are
served.
Q166 Mr Campbell: Have there been
sufficient complaints about the adequacy of the estate which have
then invoked you to investigate further about that?
Mr Coulter: No, there have not
been. There have been very few of that kind.
Q167 Mr Campbell: What about the
accommodation for female prisoners at Hydebank?
Mr Coulter: You actually prompt
my memory in relation to an estate-related issue there. Thank
you for that. I am really pleased to say that this week I visited
Ashe House—5 Ashe House in Hydebank is part of the female
accommodation—and I would have to say to the Committee that
what I saw was excellent accommodation in the refurbished wing.
Q168 Chairman: We have seen it and
we were very impressed.
Mr Coulter: I would say it compares
very favourably with some of the best accommodation, for example
in the Dochas Centre that I referred to in my written submission
to the Committee, so that is good. Prior to that we had a complaint
around that issue, which was to do with the accommodation not
allowing the few long-term prisoners to separate from the short-term
prisoners. That has met that need and I am told by both prisoners
and staff that it has gone a long way towards improving conditions
for everyone.
Q169 Mr Campbell: Just one final
question. On the issue of the replacement of Magilligan, I take
it from what you have said now in terms of the remit of your efforts
that effectively you would be responding to existing complaints,
as opposed to proactively searching out what may be complaints
in the future?
Mr Coulter: Absolutely, yes.
Q170 Mr Campbell: Can I take it from
that then that you would not get into any dispute or any argument
about the location of the new provision in Magilligan?
Mr Coulter: It is not my role
and I am well aware, as probably you may be, that I was reported
in the press as having made comments regarding the closure of
Magilligan. In fact, those were not the comments I made, I have
to say.
Q171 Mr Campbell: It is exactly for
that reason I am raising it. Just for there to be clarity on the
issue, are you making any comment about whether Magilligan should
be rebuilt in the existing site or relocated?
Mr Coulter: No, I would merely
reserve my comments to saying that Magilligan Prison needs to
be replaced. It is not a matter for me to determine the location,
but what I do, of course, offer is the comment that it is important
to take into consideration what the purpose of the prison is as
the overriding issue in terms of where the prison should be located,
any new prison should be located. In that regard, obviously the
two primary purposes of prison are containment for public protection
purposes, and the second is reintegration concerns and purposes,
and that relates to issues around where do prisoners live, where
do they originate from, where are their families, how can they
maintain family links, where are the employment prospects, those
kinds of issues.
Q172 Chairman: Let us get it absolutely
straight for everybody's sake. You are not yourself advocating
a move, nor are you advocating a rebuild on the same site?
Mr Coulter: I am simply saying
a replacement is needed.
Q173 Chairman: Fine. What about the
issue which has come up from several of our witnesses, and you
may comment yourself about the Hydebank Wood women's unit being
very good but a number have been very critical of the fact that
it is on the same site as the young offenders? Do you share that
criticism?
Mr Coulter: I do share that, Chairman,
and it is either a case, I think, of replacing the prison with
a purpose-built women's prison or in some way devising a scheme
whereby the two can be separated on that site.
Q174 Chairman: With a more physical
divide?
Mr Coulter: Exactly.
Q175 Sammy Wilson: Why do you feel
that you can comment on the women's prison at Hydebank but not
on the location of a replacement for Magilligan?
Mr Coulter: As I say, I felt the
issue was really specifically about the relocation of Magilligan
Prison and, as I have said, that is not a matter for me.
Chairman: You have made that very plain.
Thank you very much.
Q176 Mr Murphy: Mr Coulter, you do
actually state in the letter to the Committee that one of the
objectives central to this maintenance is the contract between
prisoners and families. The location of Magilligan Prison does
not, for many prisoners, lend itself to achieving this. Do you
see a difference in location for male prisoners and female prisoners,
because you do mention the facilities which exist in the Dochas
Prison in Dublin, which seems to cater for prisoners from all
over the South of Ireland, so location for women does not seem
to be as important an issue as the facilities, and yet you mention
location as being critically important for male prisoners?
Mr Coulter: Yes. I would not want
to mislead the Committee. I am of the opinion that the question
of maintaining contact with prisoners and their families is equally
important for male and female prisoners. There are difficulties
in a small prison service such as we have. There are diseconomies
of scale and I am not unaware that in fact the Prison Service
will never be able to produce the ideal solution to this. It is
trying to devise a solution which most closely fits its central
purpose and obviously that will have some impact on location.
I have not said where any new prison should be, apart from what
I have just suggested in relation to Hydebank Wood, and I am not
fixed in that. I think I was indicating it could be on the existing
site.
Q177 Chairman: As long as there is
a physical barrier, yes.
Mr Coulter: Absolutely.
Q178 Dr McDonnell: Very briefly,
my main thrust would be in terms of healthcare. Will you retain
the remit on healthcare as healthcare moves more to the DHSS than
to the Prison Service?
Mr Coulter: The answer is, I do
not know. As things stand currently—and this makes no sense
to me whatsoever—there are three ombudsmen potentially involved
in prison healthcare. One is the Parliamentary Ombudsman because
criminal justice is a reserved matter, one in the future could
be the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Dr Frawley, and
the other is myself. In any complaints process, in my judgment,
the starting point should be the complainant. That is what a complaints
process exists for and it should be a one-stop-shop process. It
should be possible for the prisoner to come through one simple
process, go through the internal Prison Service complaints process
and through myself then, if necessary. The vast majority of complaints
do not come to me. I could not tell you what the numbers are of
internal complaints is, because I would not know, but I am pretty
certain that lots of them do not come anywhere near me. So the
answer is, I actually do not know and I cannot get an answer to
this dilemma, but I am certainly less than happy because one of
the things which were included in my own terms of reference is
the ability to look at clinical decision making. That is actually
very important in relation to the investigation of deaths in custody,
quite apart from the normal run of healthcare complaints, and
it has proven to be very fruitful so far, and to think that that
would be lost just does not make any sense apart from the proliferation
of people involved in the process. It is a crazy process. It has
been described within the office of the Parliamentary Ombudsman
here at Millbank as a mess and I have no power to resolve it myself.
It makes no sense.
Q179 Dr McDonnell: Do you feel healthcare
will improve under the DHSS?
Mr Coulter: I do. I think it makes
all the sense in the world. I think it was right for the Prison
Service to aim for a transfer. Having spent quite a bit of my
own professional life working in the Health Service, I do have
some concerns. I have concerns about resources and priorities.
I have concerns about the specialisms which are needed for prisons.
My judgment is that we should ideally have people who are forensically
trained, because prisoners present their healthcare problems very
differently from the normal population, and of course we have
a complete over-representation of most of the serious chronic
illnesses in the prison population.
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