Examination of Witnesses (Questions 183-199)
MR FINLAY
SPRATT AND
MS JUNE
ROBINSON
6 JUNE 2007
Q183 Chairman: Mr Finlay Spratt and Ms
June Robinson, thank you very much indeed for coming. We are grateful
to you. You have heard a bit of the previous session's evidence
and you have doubtless read other evidence we have had during
the course of this inquiry. You, yourself, have submitted a paper,
for which we are grateful. Could I just, Mr Spratt, remind you
of the specific terms of reference of our inquiry? We are conducing
an inquiry into the operation of the Northern Ireland Prison Service
and in particular to examine whether the existing prison estate
is adequate and appropriate for the secure accommodation of Northern
Ireland's prisoners, and whether the Prison Service appropriately
meets the health, education and training needs of prisoners. The
Committee will also examine such other issues as may arise in
the course of the inquiry, but that just sets the scene. Before
I bring in colleagues and ask the first question, is there any
point which you yourself wish to make at the outset?
Mr Spratt: I just want to make
the point that June and I are representatives of the Prison Officers'
Association in Northern Ireland. There would be many details that
would go on within the Northern Ireland Prison Service that we
just would not have information on and which, for obvious reasons,
they would not wish to share with us as a trade union. So you
may be asking us some questions, and we certainly have heard the
Prison Ombudsman addressing some issues that we would not be aware
of, but certainly we will be open, frank and honest and we will
give you an honest opinion and you will draw your own conclusions
after that.
Q184 Chairman: We will certainly
do that, and perhaps I could just start before bringing in Mr
Pound. Could you tell me whether you consider yourself a rehabilitation
officer?
Mr Spratt: I believe that prisons
should be there. When we send people to prison we should strive
to return them to society better people, but it depends how we
treat them while they are in the penal system, and I have some
outrageous views on how we treat prisoners in the Northern Ireland
Prison Service. I think that we are coming out of a conflict of
30 years where prison officers have not time to be prison officers,
and I think there is a whole retraining programme needed in the
Northern Ireland Prison Service. I think at this point in time
the Prison Service has sadly failed the members who work in it
and the prisoners we house. One of the bones of contention is
the remission system where a prisoner is automatically granted
50% remission. Although there has been a bill passed recently
to amend that, I think it is some 20 or 30 years too late. When
you send a prisoner to prison he automatically knows he is getting
50% remission, so he takes the view, "Well, why should I
cooperate with the system? I'm only going to do half my time."
My view is that if Parliament and society wishes to support prison
officers then I think when a prisoner is sentenced to prison,
should that be five, ten years, then he should earn the right
to be released into society. That way he will work with the prison
officer, it will give the prison officer an incentive to work
with him, and I think we need to sadly, right across the United
Kingdom, look at the remission system and how we treat and deal
with offenders.
Q185 Chairman: So you are in favour
of remission in principle, but you are against it being automatic?
Mr Spratt: Absolutely.
Chairman: Thank you. I think that is
something with which many of us would find ourselves in sympathy.
Could I bring in someone whom I know you have had the pleasure
of meeting in the past and who has certainly enjoyed the pleasure
of meeting you, Mr Stephen Pound.
Q186 Stephen Pound: Thank you very
much indeed, Chairman. I also wish to say it is a real pleasure
to see you again, Mr Spratt, looking so well and in such good
spirits.
Mr Spratt: Yes. It is nice to
see you, too.
Q187 Stephen Pound: In some of our
earlier conversations you have quite rightly made the extremely
serious point about the transitionary role of your members moving
from a very, very different custodial environment to the one which
they currently occupy, and at that time you raised with us not
just the problems off the estate faced by your members but the
difficulty of recalibrating their entire working day and their
working practices. You said that that was transitional and you
thought at the time there could be a reduction in the cost per
prisoner and possibly even a reduction in the prisoner numbers,
but that training was a crucial aspect for the higher staffing
ratios. Last year we were faced with a situation where the average
cost per prisoner in Northern Ireland was something like three
times that of Scotland and four times that of parts of England
and Wales. How far are we moving towards the reduction in the
annual cost per prisoner from your perspective? Are we going too
fast or are we going too slowly?
Mr Spratt: If you read the document
which I sent you, that was an initiative from the Northern Ireland
Prison Service because whether you like to believe it or not the
POA has spent this last five to seven years trying to drag the
management of the Prison Service forward into the 21st century
and they keep blaming prison staff. You just have to read that
document. That says it all and I fully stand by everything that
is there. The problem which happened when the Maze closed was
that everybody forgot we still have a Prison Service to run and
they thought the prisoner population was actually going down,
but as a matter of fact it was increasing. They had a golden opportunity
then to address the issue and plan for the future, but instead
in the meetings I had they talked about the prison population
dropping, but it actually went the opposite way. In fact there
was a programme round about 2002, I think, where they talked about
a rebuilding programme. Somebody somewhere shelved that. That
is why we are in the mess that we are in today, and we have actually
got their evidence.
Ms Robinson: Yes, in fact they
talked in 2002 about possibly rebuilding Maghaberry and different,
new plans for Maghaberry. They actually allowed in those plans
for the prisoner population to go up to 1,500 to today, but as
Finlay has just said, for some reason a decision was taken and
those plans never went ahead.
Q188 Stephen Pound: But would that
affect the officer to prisoner ratio, which is one of the main
reasons for the very high cost of custody in Northern Ireland?
Mr Spratt: We are hoping that
this document we have produced here will address the cost per
prisoner, because in fact with the recent efficiency programme
we have brought in we have cut out 10% of staffing costs. That
is quite a substantial reduction of 10%, which is about 150 officers'
posts which actually came in on 1 April.
Q189 Stephen Pound: Over what period
was that reduction?
Mr Spratt: Actually, it took place
on 1 April -
Ms Robinson: 1 April this year.
Mr Spratt: -- a reduction of staffing
of 150.
Q190 Stephen Pound: In the last financial
year?
Mr Spratt: Yes, starting from
1 April this year. We negotiated a three year pay deal with the
Northern Ireland Office which actually reduced prison officers'
numbers by 150 on 1 April this year, so we have strived to make
a contribution to reducing the cost per prisoner place. We have
also actually agreed by wide-ranging terms, in fact, a proposal
to replace the court escorting service with cheaper people. That
is now in and it is up and running. We have actually agreed the
introduction of OSG grades, which in actual fact is half the cost
of a prison officer, and if you read this document back in 2004
I went to the Northern Ireland Office and proposed then that we
recruit prisoner custody officers. They advertised for them, they
interviewed them and they did not recruit, and they have wasted
millions of pounds of taxpayers' money paying overtime to run
Maghaberry. It is in the document and I can produce it. The facts
are there. It was advertised in the press. Somebody somewhere
in the Prison Service management decided they would not do that
and cost the taxpayer millions of pounds, but they are always
very good on turning around and blaming the POA. We certainly
do not take any blame for it. It is not my job or June's to manage
the Northern Ireland Prison Service. Yes, we will express a view,
but we do not have the authority or the power. We have certainly
strived and put forward proposals to reduce the cost per prisoner
place. I have to acknowledge that the present management we have
are attempting to do something about it, but we wasted three years
in the Northern Ireland Prison Service where management did not
function, they did not consult with the POA. We basically lost
three years and that is why we are in the mess we are in today.
Q191 Chairman: How would you describe
your relations with management at the moment?
Mr Spratt: The relations with
management at the moment are excellent.
Q192 Chairman: So you have forgiven
them, have you?
Mr Spratt: No, this is a new management.
Ms Robinson: It is a new management
team.
Mr Spratt: It is a new management
team, Chairman. Yes, there are problems, do not get me wrong.
There are always problems between an employer and a trade union
and it would be wrong for me to say any differently! At the end
of the day, yes, they are trying, but I believe they should try
a lot harder. We did agree a reduction, but I have told the pay
review body, and I will tell you, yes, we negotiated a pay deal.
I believe management failed that pay deal because we have not
the staff in place. Even though we are reduced to 130 at Maghaberry
at the moment, staff cannot get leave, prisoners are locked up
during the association period, shift patterns were not properly
designed and it is a total and complete mess. In fact we are going
back to another meeting in Maghaberry on Monday. We had a meeting
a month ago. I had proposals to resolve it and every time everybody
says, no, I am talking through my head. I have to say I have been
31 years in the Prison Service and if I do not know my job by
this time, well, then I think there is something wrong.
Q193 Lady Hermon: Could I just ask,
in the light of the point you have just made, Mr Spratt, which
we have listened to very attentively, how would you describe morale
within the Prison Service, within your membership?
Mr Spratt: Morale within the Prison
Service at this point in time, because of the new efficiency package
which we brought in, it would be fair to say is very low, and
it is very low from the fact that people prior to the present
management should have made decisions. They did not make them,
so there is a backlog, Lady Hermon, and we do not have enough
staff. When we brought in the efficiency package we were something
like 180 staff short, but we reduced that by 100, so we are still
staff short. Therefore, morale at the moment—because obviously
there are new shift patterns which had to come in, but I believe
there is only one establishment across the whole estate which
actually managed it properly and that is Magilligan. There is
not a problem with the new shift pattern. The local POA at Maghaberry
did their best, but unfortunately there is a shortage of staff
and morale at the location at the moment is very low.
Ms Robinson: Lady Hermon, could
I add something about morale. The Prison Service Headquarters
themselves recently did a staff survey. They were disappointed
with the uptake on that survey, but I think it is interesting
to note when you talk about morale that about 29% of staff had
very little confidence in senior management. I think it was 29%.
Q194 Sammy Wilson: Could I just ask
one follow up question to that? You have mentioned the efficiency
measures, which have been supported, the per prisoner cost, et
cetera. Do you see any further scope, because there still is a
huge discrepancy on the cost per prisoner, for efficiencies in
terms of new staffing arrangements which might help reduce the
cost any further, Mr Spratt?
Mr Spratt: Yes, Mr Wilson. We
have actually proposed in our document here for them to introduce
OSGs (Operational Support Grades) and as prison officers retire
we would hope to replace them with OSGs, in fact we are hoping
to recruit OSGs in discussions with the Northern Ireland Office,
in fact we have a meeting next week about it and we will ask them
to introduce OSGs between now and Christmas. So over a period
of time, I believe there is hope, but what is needed in the Northern
Ireland Prison Service is a whole re-training programme and changing
people's minds, because do not forget that prison officers have
worked for 30 years in a bunker-like state of affairs and you
have got to convince people that we are in a different world now,
and that is not easy. I believe, yes, over a period of time there
is room to do this because, let us be honest about it, we have
to, there is no question about it. I am a trades union leader,
but I have to face reality. We have to reduce the cost per prisoner
place, and I think by management in the POA—and we have
demonstrated it with the three year pay deal—we can work
together, and I believe we will work together. I believe over
a period of time with the introduction of these grades we will
reduce the cost per prisoner place. It will not happen overnight,
but I think we are on the way to attacking it.
Q195 Mr Fraser: Mr Spratt, going
back to the point you just made about morale and the issues to
do with prison conditions, can I just refer to something which
the Committee has been told by Robin Masefield? He has said that
one of the problems facing the NIPS was a "largely static
workforce steeped in the past." What do you say to that?
Mr Spratt: That is the point that
I made. Prison officers have come through. For 35 years they lived
in bunkers. We have got to convince them. Yes, I would acknowledge
the point that Robin is making. For example, we are all aware
of the stealing of information in terms of prison officers a few
years ago with Stormont which brought down the Northern Ireland
Executive. That had a major impact. Even today prison officers
are losing all those security measures. That is a decision made
by the Chief Constable. We are no longer under threat. That has
had a tremendous impact on prison officers. You try and convince
them that that threat is not there. You have got to convince their
families. People may not believe it, but over the 30 years prison
officers and their families were the forgotten members of the
security services in Northern Ireland. We got absolutely nothing,
and you have got to convince people. If you tell prison officers
in Northern Ireland, "A prison officer in England will look
after, say, 60 prisoners. Why do you need four officers in Northern
Ireland?" because that is the culture that they have been
brought up in.
Q196 Mr Fraser: One of the interim
solutions regarding the population growth is the new ready-to-use
accommodation blocks. Is this a solution or a way of moving forward
that you would be comfortable with, and how can that be improved
upon?
Mr Spratt: Yes, I think the accommodation
that we have in Northern Ireland is very staff-intensive. H-Blocks
and that type of accommodation takes a lot of staff to man it
because there are so many different hiding areas and I think new
accommodation, properly designed in a more open way will actually
reduce the staffing levels, so that will in turn reduce the cost
per prisoner place. Our accommodation is so outdated and it has
not kept up with modern designs. The new RTU units which they
are going to build at Magilligan and Maghaberry are in actual
fact starting to address that issue. I do not think spending £50
million to build a new prison at Ballymena is the answer.
Q197 Mr Fraser: Accepting the points
which Anne Owers has pointed out to us, where she described Magilligan
in terms of her inspection as unsafe and unsanitary, you would
agree with those points?
Ms Robinson: Yes, there is a lot
of work which needs to be done at Magilligan, but I think management
has to take the blame for that. Magilligan was really left and
it was neglected for quite some years. Now there is a lot of talk
about building a new prison on a green field site, which we would
be totally, totally against.
Q198 Mr Fraser: Can you go into more
detail about why you are against that?
Ms Robinson: To start with, we
have about 450 members who work in Magilligan Prison. It provides
a lot of economic benefits to that area, Limavady, Coleraine,
that area. There is a good atmosphere there. You even find a lot
of our members, when they are working at Maghaberry, may be transferred
to Magilligan. There is a good staff atmosphere and we just think
it would be a total waste of taxpayers' money just to ignore that,
for whatever reason. We just do not see any benefits, economic
or otherwise.
Q199 Mr Fraser: If you are in a position
where you are developing an existing site that would have existing
prisons, as they are at the moment, and moving into a new regime
of new buildings, that is going to have an enormous impact in
the short-term on the prison officers and the way they work?
Ms Robinson: Yes.
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