Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
MR FINLAY
SPRATT AND
MS JUNE
ROBINSON
6 JUNE 2007
Q220 Sammy Wilson: The issue of separation
of prisoners, of course, on paramilitary lines is something which
the Prison Officers' Association has commented on before the new
regime was first introduced and you have expressed some concerns
about that. Are you still concerned about the impact on prison
officers and their families of the separation of paramilitary
prisoners in prisons?
Ms Robinson: First of all, yes,
the separation issue was introduced and I am really even afraid
to say that it seems to be going reasonably well. We are aware
that since separation was introduced I think only one prison officer
has been assaulted. Our main concern really is the fact that so
many resources were diverted towards separation and implementing
it that resources in other parts of the prison are really in short
supply. So the separated regime basically gets the bulk of the
resources and other aspects for other prisoners really get less.
Q221 Sammy Wilson: That really brings
me to the second question I wanted to ask, because apart from
the concerns that you had for the safety of prison offices obviously
it did have some implications like this. I think everyone knew
it was going to have implications for the way in which the prisons
were run. In practical terms, what impact has the separation of
prisoners had on other parts of the non-separated parts of the
prison at Maghaberry?
Mr Spratt: Could you explain,
because I do not really -
Ms Robinson: Are you talking about
the running of workshops?
Q222 Sammy Wilson: Yes.
Ms Robinson: It is as simple as
this: staff are short in Maghaberry, and if they are short they
maybe do not run programmes for other prisoners. As has just been
said, all the resources, all the staff, are directed towards the
separated regimes and the rest of the inmates lose out. If there
were more resources, obviously more things could be done. There
could be a fuller regime.
Q223 Sammy Wilson: I am not quite
sure here of the connection. Why has the separation regime led
to resources being diverted towards the separated part of the
prison rather than to other parts?
Mr Spratt: Mr Wilson, if I could
explain, because of their experience in the Maze Prison with prison
officers having control of the prison, when separation came into
Maghaberry we explained quite clearly we believed it should never
happen, but that was the hope and that was the recommendation.
There was one criteria, that we said we had to make sure that
prisoners again would never take control of a penal establishment
as they had in the Maze. I give you an example. In Bush House,
for example, if you need five staff on the landing to run that
wing for the day and if there are three on and two sick, they
take two from somewhere else, put them into Bush. The separated
prisoners get what they should be getting and, as we call them,
the ODCs, the ordinary decent criminals, they are banged up for
two years. So they robbed Peter to pay Paul and if there is a
major problem—our feeling has always been that we should
not have separate regimes, they should come into the penal system,
but other people made the decisions.
Q224 Sammy Wilson: What happens if
it is the other way round? What happens if there are two officers
who report sick who deal with the ODCs?
Mr Spratt: They certainly do not
touch the separated landings.
Q225 Sammy Wilson: You have given
us one example of how it skews the use of resources. Are there
any other ways in which separation has skewed resources? First
of all, is what you are saying a common occurrence, but secondly,
are there other ways in which that skewing of resources occurs,
apart from the fact that you insist—and quite rightly insist—on
a proper complement of prison officers being on separated wings?
Mr Spratt: My information is in
fact the regime—and when I talk about "regime"
that is education, training and all that—that would be happening
for ordinary prisoners, not just alone, closing them up, that
actually would not be happening because of the resources. So it
impacts across the whole penal system and the services that we
provide to the ODC.
Q226 Sammy Wilson: If I could just
be clear on this. If, for example, it was a choice between running
a training or an education class for the separated prisoners as
opposed to what you call the ODCs, are you saying that the preference
always is given to the separated prisoners?
Mr Spratt: The separated prisoners
won every day, always have.
Ms Robinson: Yes, they take the
resources.
Q227 Sammy Wilson: That is a policy
directive coming from the Northern Ireland Office, from the prison
management, or where?
Mr Spratt: It is certainly, "Don't
upset the separated prisoners," so that has been the whole
ethos of the Northern Ireland Prison Service in my 30 years in
it. It has not changed much.
Q228 Sammy Wilson: That direction
comes from where?
Mr Spratt: The people who manage
the Northern Ireland prisons down through the Director of Operations.
Obviously that would come from him and that is the policy. The
separated prisoners' regime is not affected. The ODCs' regime
goes first.
Q229 Sammy Wilson: Can I be clear
on this, when it comes to operational decisions on a day to day
basis the prison governor has got to decide, "Do I stop classes
in the separated wings or in the rest of the prison?"
Mr Spratt: That is right.
Q230 Sammy Wilson: As far as the
prison governor is concerned, because of the edict from the Northern
Ireland Office, and presumably from the political masters in the
Northern Ireland Office, he does not have a choice but to follow
it?
Mr Spratt: I could not really
say that, but from experience with Teachy the governor has a job
to do and he has to make the decision, and my experience has been
it is always push from the top and he always knows what he has
to do. Who it comes from, I am not in a position to tell this
Committee because I do not know. You have been around Northern
Ireland and you have seen what is going on and you can draw your
own conclusions.
Chairman: I am sure we can.
Q231 Sammy Wilson: But your observation
is that it is always in that direction?
Mr Spratt: Absolutely, yes.
Chairman: Remedial work for the ODCs.
I think you wanted to come in briefly, Mr Murphy?
Q232 Mr Murphy: On that particular
point, your organisation has accepted a reduction currently of
150 prison officers?
Mr Spratt: That is right, yes.
Q233 Mr Murphy: Given the question
which Mr Wilson has just been probing, would that not then make
the situation significantly worse given the separation continuing?
Mr Spratt: Yes, but they made
the reduction on the basis that we know we have got separation
and we have reduced to 150, because that is as far as we could
go, because we knew we had to maintain separation. If we had not
had separation, they probably could have gone further. So that
was an overall reduction across the Prison Service, not just in
Maghaberry. I think Maghaberry's figure was round about 80 staff
they reduced in Maghaberry and I think it was 40 in Magilligan,
somewhere around those figures.
Q234 Dr McDonnell: My concern, maybe
changing the agenda a little bit, is about the health of prisoners
and the transition from the prison health service to the public
health service as we know it. What impact will that have on prisoners'
health and indeed the capacity for prison officers to look after
them?
Mr Spratt: Dr McDonnell, it is
a subject in fact we are just dealing with at the moment, healthcare
within prisons. I hate to come across as if I know it all, but
when you have had 31 years in the Northern Ireland Prison Service,
now coming up to 32, and you have seen some of the things that
have happened, I believe—and we did a review of healthcare
ten years ago and we actually recruited 14 more mental health
nurses than we actually set down as the complement. Healthcare
in the Northern Ireland Prison Service again has been a disaster.
It is all about this business about managing, you know, you have
a job to do and you manage. My argument has been—and I make
no bones about it, and I have referred you to my document—that
I believe that the Northern Ireland Prison Service should actually
put their own house in order first in terms of healthcare before
they hand over the problem to the National Health Service. Now,
they have difficulties enough and I think all they have done is
add to the difficulties. Prison officers through the hunger strike,
ten of them, trained as hospital officers and we nursed them.
We agreed ten years ago that we would recruit qualified nurses,
which we did. We put in a head of nursing and I do not know what
happened, but certainly healthcare is a major issue. I believe
that the Trust has actually taken it over from 1 April, and I
believe that we should have put our house in order first. I believe
the Northern Ireland Prison Service could have delivered a healthcare
second to none had it been properly managed for much less resources.
They talk about they are going to need more money. Where are they
going to get it? The healthcare in the Prison Service for a number
of years I think has been sadly lacking. Now, I have to put it
on the record that Dr Phillip McClemence and Mr Thompson, who
is heading up the healthcare, I think are trying to do an excellent
job and Dr McClemence's idea that the Health Service should deal
with it, yes, they should, but I think that they have taken over
a broken structure.
Q235 Dr McDonnell: Is this in Maghaberry?
Mr Spratt: It is actually right
across.
Q236 Dr McDonnell: Are they responsible
for everything?
Mr Spratt: Yes, that is right.
The trusts are taking over healthcare in Magilligan, YOC and Maghaberry,
and I think there should have been more work and we should have
actually structured it better and we should have handed it over
to the Health Service. For example, surely a prisoner is entitled
to the same healthcare that you and I enjoy in the public sector.
We go beyond that. We waste resources like prison officers going
round with a trolley. Why do we not say to the prisoners, "You
take responsibility for your own healthcare"? But no, we
muddle and we waste resources. Prisons should be like a health
centre where prisoners can actually go with their problems if
they want to see a doctor, but it does not work like that and
I think that we should put it in order before we hand it over
to the Health Service. But those two gentlemen are working very
hard, Dr McDonnell, and I hope we can actually turn it around,
in fact I am pretty confident over a period of time, but at the
moment it is very up in the air. We lack nurses. There is a high
level of sickness. Somebody should ask the question, why, but
nobody seems to ask. When you get a high level of sickness there
is always a reason.
Chairman: Maybe we could do just that.
Q237 Dr McDonnell: I want to follow
on on the training specifically, not the specially recruited nursing
staff, or whatever. What training do prison officers get, what
training do they need and how skilled are they in dealing with
mentally ill prisoners?
Mr Spratt: Ten years ago, Dr McDonnell,
when we reviewed the healthcare there was actually a programme
to be laid out for prison officers who were healthcare officers
to be trained. I asked for them to be trained up to paramedic
standard. Of course, it was tabooed. They did not know what I
was talking about, so therefore nobody listened. There was a programme
to be set out that these people would get training. They actually
got no training, so the healthcare officer got no training and
even with some of the nurses who came in there was actually a
difficulty. They have to retrain every so often to keep up. They
even had difficulty getting time off, but as I say, that is a
difficulty but hopefully they can turn it around. I think they
can turn it around, because we have two gentlemen heading it up
who are very professional.
Q238 Mr Murphy: Does the Prison Officers'
Association accept the general criticism that there is a lack
of purposeful activity for prisoners across the whole of the Northern
Ireland estate?
Mr Spratt: Yes, because prisoners,
in my opinion, should spend out of their cell as much time as
possible. The reality is because of management decisions made
going back three years ago—and it is in this document—we
do not have the staff on the ground. That is the problem. I can
tell you, ladies and gentlemen, the Northern Ireland Prison Service
is a total disaster and it is not of the present management's
making. People who were in place three years ago, who should have
made the decisions, did not make them and the Director-General
we have got now has had to pick up something that he was not responsible
for. As I talk to you here today the morale in Maghaberry has
totally gone. We have done a new programme of 150 reduction. I
believe that the Northern Ireland Prison Service has to work very
hard. We are going into a difficult period between now and August
because this is the double leave period and we are going to have
difficulties getting through.
Q239 Lady Hermon: Do you think the
current Director-General is doing a fairly good job?
Mr Spratt: I think he is doing
an excellent job and I think he has to pick up the tab, and he
picked up a total mess.
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