Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-332)
MRS OLWEN
LYNER AND
MR PAT
CONWAY
13 JUNE 2007
Q320 Chairman: But the principle
of the change is something which has your approval?
Mrs Lyner: Absolutely.
Mr Conway: Yes.
Q321 Chairman: If that is the case,
then we have to make sure it works properly.
Mrs Lyner: Yes. A really important
thing which happens in relation to that currently is the length
of time which somebody who comes into prison on day one and says,
"I am on medication," has to wait before that script
is sorted and you are back on your heart drug, or whatever, and
that seems inappropriate. It would be much easier for the system
which connects with those GPs on the outside to be able to make
all of that work, and much safer as well.
Chairman: Yes.
Q322 Mr Hepburn: So with healthcare
getting transferred over, who then would take full responsibility
for the non-medical parts of the case, such as finding accommodation,
life skills, that sort of thing?
Mr Conway: That should still remain
with the Prison Service, and they should be the driver for that
in association with other bodies like ourselves and Probation,
but I think when you look at the numbers of people who go into
prison and who, for example, have what are designated personality
disorders and what is not done for them—and the percentage
is very high on this—our understanding is that it is in
the region of about 60% of prisoners who have a personality disorder
of some description, yet those people cannot access the forensic
psychiatric services. Obviously we did a major response to Bamford
with particular regard to forensic services. I suppose the assumption
is that the mainstream psychiatric services, the non-prison psychiatric
services, for example, are of a high standard, whereas in actual
fact most of Bamford is about saying that is not the case. So
there are difficulties for prisoners accessing a service outside
as well and ensuring the quality. Somebody once said to me, "A
prison is not a psychiatric hospital yet it actually contains
many individuals who suffer from psychiatric illnesses and personality
disorders." So certainly we would welcome the health input
and control of health-related matters, and that includes, if you
like, mainstream medical physical conditions as well as psychiatric,
but we would have serious concerns, particularly around the psychiatric
elements of that, because if they are of a fairly low standard
already—which everybody seems to agree—what chance
is there of people who are in a contained situation accessing
quality services?
Mrs Lyner: You also asked a question
about such things as accommodation or social skills. The Resettlement
Strategy, which we signed up to and which a number of government
departments signed up to, which is led by the Prison Service and
Probation, has an ongoing involvement with the Housing Executive
and they are at the moment doing a pilot piece of work to look
at what are the issues around the ending of tenancies for people
who go in, and then getting people as they are coming out back
on waiting lists, into social housing. There is similar work going
on with the Benefits Agency. So a number of the agencies are perhaps
not quite in a position that health would have been, where it
was going to take over the full responsibility for health, but
who are beginning to look at what are their responsibilities and
when would it be useful in the period of the sentence for them
to intervene so that we put together something which reduces the
risk of people's lifestyles deteriorating and them returning to
offending very quickly after release.
Mr Conway: I think the other key
point is that we are not pitching for NIACRO to be responsible
for resettlement services. We would welcome and fully endorse
the involvement of prison officers, which has been the case for
the past 10 or 15 years. There has been a gradual greater involvement
of prison officers in care and resettlement issues and we would
welcome that. It does not matter who delivers it, as long as it
is delivered.
Q323 Chairman: As long as it is delivered,
that is your point, but you are not seeking to extend your empire?
Mr Conway: Very small it is!
Q324 Chairman: But you are emphatic
that these facilities need to be provided?
Mr Conway: Yes.
Q325 Chairman: That they are not
being comprehensively and adequately provided at the moment, and
therefore you are urging that any inquiry, including this one,
should come up with some clear recommendations as to how they
should be provided? Is that a fair summary?
Mrs Lyner: Absolutely, and a key
issue here is consistency. To know that something is happening
this year, or last year—I need to know that it is also available
today, and those are the concerns, and inspection after inspection
raises those issues about initiatives which are there for periods
of time but are not consistently delivered.
Chairman: We greatly value your comments
and your advice.
Q326 Lady Hermon: May I just ask
you to summarise how you would characterise your relationship
with (a) the Prison Service itself, and (b) the Prison Officers'
Association? Is it good? Is it constructive?
Mrs Lyner: I can certainly give
you a fair view. Our relationship with the Prison Service, I think,
is mature.
Q327 Lady Hermon: That is good, mature.
Mrs Lyner: Yes. We respond to
most of their consultations. We generally take issue with lots
of things -
Q328 Chairman: You have a constructive
dialogue?
Mrs Lyner: Yes, we do.
Mr Conway: Yes.
Mrs Lyner: It is a very constructive
relationship and there is a degree of respect there and we would
be known at a senior level throughout that. We do not as such
have a relationship with the POA. Maybe that is a weakness on
both our parts. That said, we would have a relationship but mostly
with governors, at governor level.
Q329 Lady Hermon: With the Prison
Officers' Association or just individual—
Mrs Lyner: No, individuals.
Q330 Lady Hermon: Just individual
governors?
Mrs Lyner: Yes.
Chairman: With individual governors,
yes.
Q331 John Battle: You do your work
and I just want to ask the question, when people come out they
need somewhere to sleep, they need a place, they need money and
help with training and a job, and usually one person does one
of those bits on the inside and they come out and there is somebody
else somewhere. For example, to take housing, I find that there
is no real connection between the efforts going on in the prison
and when the prisoner comes out. No one has really communicated.
There is no one in the council—because they are not going
to buy a house and private rental is difficult to get—to
help them tie it up there. Are there links with the statutory
authorities outside to link with the efforts which go on inside?
Are you brokering that for them so that when they come every prisoner
knows where he is going to sleep the night he comes out, where
his immediate money for the next week is going to come from and
where his pathway and training and a job might be? I mean women
as well.
Mr Conway: We are aware and have
developed our particular model to cover all those elements. What
that means is that we try and develop our staff to be aware of
not only what they are responsible for but what are the other
elements which will enable and facilitate resettlement. That does
not mean to say that that person has to have a range of skills,
but at least he knows where to look for the brokerage elements
that you referred to. We do have advice workers, who are very
good at what they do in terms of housing, benefits and all the
rest of it. We do have people who are very good at getting people
into employment. Sometimes there is a tension between those two
things, because the issue obviously is that if you maximise somebody's
benefits then they have to have a job which is financially attractive.
We manage those elements also through things like ensuring that
people can return to their community of origin safely. We have
a project which facilitates that type of thing. So there is a
broad range, but the weakness in all of this is the link, the
gap between the prisoner leaving the gate and ensuring that there
is adequate pick-up within the first 72 hours. That is the kind
of golden three days. I think the police talk about a "golden
hour" after a crime is committed. There is a phrase like
that. We would argue that there is a golden three days, and if
you can ensure that all the elements are hooked up from within
the prison to the community outside then that will ultimately
assist and make an impact in terms of somebody's resettlement
and will reduce the rate of recidivism and impacts upon the potential
victims. So that is what all our staff are clued into, but there
is a difference—and I think the Prison Service accept this
as well—between the principle and the operation, making
that operational. That has proved to be the big difficulty.
John Battle: Everywhere!
Q332 Chairman: Once normality comes
in its fullest sense to Northern Ireland, bearing in mind the
numbers and the population of the province of Northern Ireland,
there is no reason why you should not have the best and most integrated
service in the whole of the UK.
Mrs Lyner: Absolutely.
Mr Conway: Yes.
Chairman: Indeed, I hope that our report
will be directed towards making recommendations to bring that
about. If there are other points which you want to put to us which
you think would be helpful, then please feel free. We shall certainly
be continuing our inquiry into the autumn and reporting to Parliament
probably shortly before Christmas, but we have not got a definite
timetable. We do know that we will certainly be still on our inquiry
in the autumn, though. So thank you very, very much indeed. Thank
you for what you are doing and for your helpful answers, and we
wish you a safe journey back.
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