Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
RT HON
SHAUN WOODWARD
MP, MR NICK
PERRY AND
MS HILARY
JACKSON
30 JANUARY 2008
Q40 Lady Hermon: Is it correct that
the leadership of Sinn Fein, in particular Mr Adams, continues
to lobby you as Secretary of State for an amnesty for OTRs, on-the-runs?
Does he continue to lobby you?
Mr Woodward: He does not lobby
me for an amnesty for OTRs, no.
Q41 Lady Hermon: Oh, that was very
carefully put.
Mr Woodward: I am answering a
very carefully phrased question.
Lady Hermon: In other words OTRs are
still raised directly with you?
Q42 Chairman: Are you being lobbied
by anybody?
Mr Woodward: I think the answer
to, "Am I being lobbied on these issues?", is that of
course I am being lobbied on these issues, but again, let us be
perfectly clear: the Government made its position absolutely clear
on OTRs when we found ourselves having to withdraw the legislation.
The answer that the previous incumbent, Peter Hain, gave on this
issue is one that I stand by.
Lady Hermon: Thank you.
Q43 Mr Campbell: Will that procedure
change in the future?
Mr Woodward: Will what procedure
change?
Q44 Mr Campbell: What you have just
said, that your stance is the same as your predecessor's.
Mr Woodward: My stance is the
same as my predecessor's. We will not be reintroducing that piece
of legislation.
Q45 Mr Campbell: Will you be reintroducing
a piece of legislation similar to it?
Mr Woodward: Look: I think this
is really an interesting line of inquiry. There are issues to
be addressed in this at the moment which I am addressing. I am
more than happy if you want at a future stage to sit down and
discuss this issue but if your question is am I spending time
looking at the issue of OTRs now, the answer is no, I am not.
Q46 Mr Campbell: You have not allayed
my fears, Secretary of State, with that answer. We will come back
to it. I do not want to reintroduce the issue of devolution of
policing and justice either at this stage, Secretary of State,
but you did say in answer to a previous question that the reason
that it was an issue and it was being discussed was not because
you were in favour of it but because the people voted for it.
I think I am summarising fairly accurately what you said. It is
not really a question, just a statement to rectify that inaccurate
statement. I was elected to the Assembly, as were my colleagues,
and we were not elected on any basis of a definitive date for
devolution of policing and justice. It was not on our manifesto,
nor did any individual at any door mention it to us. I understand
there are opinion polls but that is simply to redress what you
said earlier. I want to move on to another transfer, not the devolution
of policing and justice but the issue that you also alluded to
about transferring prison healthcare from the prison regime to
the Department of Health. You alluded to it almost as an example
of, and I would not like to use the phrase "seamless transition",
things going smoothly and yet the Committee has heard that there
appears to be some delay, if not difficulty, in the transfer.
Mr Woodward: The transfer will
be finalised on 1 April of this year. I think it is absolutely
right that the transfer takes place. I think it will produce far
better healthcare for those who need it once the transfer takes
place. There were issues to be negotiated but, to be honest, Gregory,
what this reveals is the difficulty of maintaining a comfortable
split between those functions which were transferred in stage
one and those which are to be transferred. Equally, let me just
say about both my colleague Paul Goggins and the Health Minister
in the new Executive that we managed to find a resolution and
they worked brilliantly to find it, and I think the outcome will
be good for everybody and it will be particularly good for those—
Q47 Chairman: This Committee unanimously
recommended it.
Mr Woodward: Absolutely.
Q48 Mr Campbell: I just have one
other question, Chairman. I did not get the chance to get in on
the general political issues so could I just ask you a question,
Secretary of State, on the wider matter of political developments
in Northern Ireland? There is a parity issue that has been getting
knocked around for some time now which has not been addressed
and I wonder if you could give us some assistance on it, if not
today in the near future. In recent years the Irish Government
has offered facilities for people in Northern Ireland to acquire
Irish passports in conjunction with the Royal Mail at various
post offices, and that is fine; people can do that if they choose
to purchase Irish passports, even though for many of them they
have never lived in the Irish Republic but they wish to have an
Irish passport; they can do that. There is not the same facility
for the 40,000 people who, according to the last census, were
born in the Irish Republic but live in Northern Ireland and wish
to acquire a British passport. Obviously, it is a Home Office
issue, but would it be possible for you to examine that? As I
say, there are up to 40,000 people who in every other respect
are British citizens—they pay British taxes, vote in British
elections. In fact, the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly
is one such person affected. They cannot get a British passport.
They have to go through a convoluted naturalisation process in
order to get a British passport while the others can acquire an
Irish passport by simply turning up at the post office to get
one. Would you be able to help in examining that and perhaps applying
some pressure to the Home Office to rectify what appears to be
a parity issue that does need rectifying?
Mr Woodward: The answer is yes
to your question. As to whether I would be able to apply pressure,
let me have a look at the issue and I am more than happy to work
with you and come back to you on it.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
I want now to touch on a number of different issues, first of
all the Common Travel Area.
Q49 Kate Hoey: Secretary of State,
I hope you will be able to clarify what seems very confusing,
this suggestion that the Common Travel Area may be changing, and
particularly answers to questions which seem to contradict one
from Paul Goggins saying that there was no question that the Common
Travel Area would end, whereas a question answered to me just
a couple of weeks ago said that the power would be brought in
in secondary legislation and that everybody who travels across
will have in some way to give information on who they are and
what they are. First of all could I ask how often you travel back
and forth to Northern Ireland?
Mr Woodward: A lot.
Q50 Kate Hoey: And how often do you
travel on British Midland, EasyJet, whatever?
Mr Woodward: The answer is I do
but I think you will also understand that in a public session
I am not going to talk about my travel arrangements, for rather
obvious reasons, so let me resist the temptation.
Q51 Kate Hoey: I appreciate that,
Secretary of State, but we are grown-up people. What I am really
asking is do you ever travel in a normal way?
Mr Woodward: Yes.
Q52 Kate Hoey: Would you like to
clarify then what you think this is all about and how you hope
as Secretary of State to protect United Kingdom citizens living
in Northern Ireland travelling back and forward from being treated
any differently from people travelling from Scotland to London?
Mr Woodward: The first thing to
say is that the stories which have appeared in newspapers about
passports being required are erroneous. Having laid that canard
to one side, the issue before us is whether or not we can improve
on the security arrangements in relation to a climate of international
terrorism and, secondly, deal with issues to do with illegal immigration.
That is what has driven the reviews that have taken place and
which have therefore touched on the Common Travel Area. As I said
at the beginning, there is not going to be suddenly a requirement
for people to be carrying passports. However, we already have
legislation with provision for those, for example, travelling
by plane, since you have touched on the issue of travelling by
plane, to make sure that people are who they say they are and,
frankly, that is common sense.
Q53 Kate Hoey: But that is general
across the United Kingdom.
Mr Woodward: Exactly, but what
we are doing is reviewing the arrangements between the islands
for the very obvious reason that they do provide an opportunity
for those who may wish to exploit the vulnerability that opens
up precisely because of island-to-island travel that takes place,
and in reviewing that, yes, we are working very closely with our
colleagues in the Irish Government to make sure that no particular
vulnerability has been opened up as a result of that, but there
are absolutely no plans to end up with a system which some have
worried about, which is whether this is going to mean that within
the Common Travel Area people are going to have to travel with
passports. They are not.
Q54 Kate Hoey: Forgetting passports—I
think we have all accepted that; I never carry my passport going
back to see family in Northern Ireland, I carry an identity thing,
the House of Commons one, which they accept; they accept all sorts
of things—the issue is whether the person travelling from
Belfast at perhaps a day's notice or whatever is going to have
to do anything other than simply turn up in the normal way with
their identity which is required at the moment.
Mr Woodward: We are not proposing
to make any fundamental changes that would depart from that at
all.
Q55 Kate Hoey: So what is this all
about then?
Mr Woodward: There are lots of
newspaper stories that appear which unfortunately are exaggerated
and I think that what we have here is something which has been
distorted. That does not take away from the fact that it is obviously
a matter of national security for us to constantly review travel
arrangements to make sure that in relation to international terrorism
but also in relation to issues of immigration we are not more
vulnerable that we can otherwise realistically be in a way that
is disproportionate.
Q56 Kate Hoey: And the extra vulnerability
in the case of Northern Ireland is because people are travelling
from another country, a foreign country, the Republic of Ireland,
into Northern Ireland and then into England, so it is not Northern
Ireland citizens that are a threat?
Mr Woodward: It is not necessarily
that any citizens are a threat. It is about making sure that those
who are a threat do not exploit the Common Travel Area as a way
in which they can—
Q57 Kate Hoey: I am sorry, Chairman,
but I think this is really important for people who are travelling
back and forward to Northern Ireland, many of whom almost commute
these days, working two or three days and going back.
Mr Woodward: I do not disagree
with that; it is very important.
Q58 Kate Hoey: What is the difference
then between that and someone travelling from Edinburgh?
Mr Woodward: I do not believe
anybody travelling from Belfast this week will notice any difference
in the arrangements this time next year.
Q59 Mr Campbell: But will someone
travelling from Edinburgh to London? That is the point, I think.
Will there be any difference between people boarding a plan in
Belfast and boarding one in Edinburgh?
Mr Woodward: I have jurisdiction
for Northern Ireland but not for Scotland. Again, I think there
is a possibility that what I have just said could be distorted.
Let me simply say that in relation to Northern Ireland, for which
I have responsibility, people travelling today to Belfast or from
Belfast this time next year will notice no difference whatsoever.
Chairman: Secretary of State, could you
let the committee have a short paper on this and could you, before
you submit it, consult with your colleagues who have Scottish
and Welsh responsibilities so that the committee can be assured
that so far as—
Sammy Wilson: It is not just Scottish
and Welsh; it is the Home Office as well.
Chairman: Perhaps I can just finish my
question, Mr Wilson.
Stephen Pound: And the Foreign Office.
Chairman: Perhaps you could consult with
all the relevant parties and give us as comprehensive an outline
as you can and then we may well wish to come back to you on it.
Sammy Wilson: Chairman, can I just ask
two questions? First of all, what information will be required
to be captured to be available to the police so that they can
see who people are, where they are going, how they can be contacted,
et cetera? What information will have to be supplied so that the
police can capture it, as has been indicated, under section 14
of the Police and Justice Act and under the e-Border scheme? Secondly,
will whatever information is required to be supplied by people
living in Northern Ireland travelling, for example, to London
be exactly the same as what would have to be given by people travelling
from Dublin to London?
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