Examination of Witness (Questions 380-399)
MS JANE
WINTER
2 APRIL 2008
Q380 Mr Murphy: When we visited the
Historical Enquiries Team we had the opportunity to look at some
of the evidence that had been collected. In some cases there was
quite a bit, several boxes for an individual case, and yet in
others there was very little, perhaps three or four sheets of
A4 containing very little information. It is fairly obvious to
us and a lot more people in Northern Ireland that information
does exist out there. Individuals or organisations will have information
on many of these murders. How would you see the HET changing to
try to encourage these people to come forward? Would you consider
amnesty to be part of it?
Ms Winter: I think one has to
be very careful about amnesties because from a human rights perspective—which
is obviously the perspective I am coming from—we would be
very concerned about impunity and about the slate being wiped
clean where people have done wrong. On the other hand there clearly
is a trade-off—we have seen this in some of the public enquiries—between
giving people at least a limited element of amnesty in return
for information. I think it would really be a matter for the professional
judgment of the HET whether they think that such an offer would
help them or would possibly hinder them; for everybody who might
come forward there might be somebody else who, disliking the idea
of an amnesty, refused to come forward.
Q381 Sammy Wilson: At the beginning
of your submission you gave your impression that British Irish
Rights Watch is a body which deals with complaints right across
the board and takes a fairly objective view of all of this. However,
reading your submission and looking at some of the comments which
have been made here, it does not seem very objective. Phrases
such as "the police had a gentleman's agreement which meant
that the RUC did not investigate them in any depth, accepting
self-serving statements supplied by the Royal Military Police";
"It is a safe bet that many of the cases will turn out to
be of major proportions" (this is in relation to the UDA);
your contention that the Bloody Sunday Inquiry was full of flaws.
It is not really a very objective assessment of the police, is
it? None of these statements are backed up by any facts.
Ms Winter: In relation to the
gentleman's agreement I can and indeed would be more than happy
to send you or the Committee all the documentary evidence that
exists. The term "gentleman's agreement" is not my term,
it is the term that was adopted at the time. It came out of papers
that came from the public records office. I would be very happy
to supply you with that information. I do not believe that we
were being in any way biased in referring to that agreement which
is a historical fact, it did exist.
Q382 Sammy Wilson: The comments about
the gentleman's agreement, who made them?
Ms Winter: The agreement was made
between the RUC and the Royal Military Police.
Q383 Sammy Wilson: The comment about
the gentleman's agreement, who used that phrase?
Ms Winter: I am afraid I cannot
remember off the top of my head who said it.
Q384 Chairman: Is it a phrase you
quoted rather than one of your own.
Ms Winter: Yes, it is one that
I have quoted, not one that I have made up. As I say, if you would
like me to send you the evidence I certainly will.
Q385 Sammy Wilson: Yes, we would
like to see the source of that particular comment. You had also
mentioned the activities of C Company of the UDA, "It is
a safe bet that many of these cases will turn out to be of major
proportions". "Safe bet" based on what? There is
no evidence given in your submission as to how you came to that
conclusion.
Ms Winter: I came to that conclusion
based on the number of serious cases that have already emerged
from that particular part of the UDA. Again I can send you details.
Q386 Sammy Wilson: You are actually
referring to the future, not referring to past cases.
Ms Winter: If I recall correctly
I had referred to the Police Ombudsman's Operation Ballast report
and what I had in mind was that if anybody had the time or resources
to go into some of the other things that have gone on in Northern
Ireland—and I accept fully that they went on on both sides
of the divide—I am thinking for example of the Stakeknife
investigation, it is a safe bet that they would be just as bad.
That was not an isolated, one-off case; I think that was the point
I was trying to make.
Q387 Sammy Wilson: You are speculating.
Ms Winter: Yes, but I think by
using the word "bet" I made that clear. In relation
to Bloody Sunday it is not just me who thinks it was flawed; the
Government went to the trouble of setting up a second inquiry
and I do not believe they would have done that unless somebody
somewhere thought that there really was something wrong with the
first inquiry.
Q388 Sammy Wilson: Some people argue
that it was a political decision to set up the inquiry. In relation
to the cases you have taken on, you have mentioned there are about
30 to 50 cases that are currently being dealt with by the Ombudsman
and the Historical Enquiries Team which are also being dealt with
by British Irish Rights Watch. How many of those cases would relate
to instances where terrorists have murdered, for example, a policeman
or a member of the security forces? How many of those cases would
relate to murders by terrorists?
Ms Winter: The majority of them
relate to murders by terrorists. Some of them relate to members
of the security forces, for example there is a police officer
who was shot off duty. Obviously I cannot give names here for
confidentiality reasons, but I am sure you will remember the dreadful
atrocities of the human bombings where both civilians and a large
number of soldiers were killed. That is another case that we have
been involved in. It is the truth that we do act for anybody whose
human rights have been violated because of the conflict, absolutely
regardless of their status. We do not go to people; we do not
chase. We do our level best for anybody who comes to us and asks
for our help.
Q389 Sammy Wilson: In how many of
the 30 to 50 cases would there be allegations of collusion by
the security forces?
Ms Winter: I think probably about
half of them. I am afraid we do not actually count all the cases
that we have; we just get on with them and do the work. I am estimating
here—guesstimating even—but I would say it is about
half.
Q390 Sammy Wilson: The vast majority
of cases that are being dealt with by the Historical Enquiries
Team, there are no allegations of security force collusion. The
vast bulk of your work would be cases where it is allegations
of security force collusion.
Ms Winter: I would not call half
the vast bulk, but I would also say to you that people who believe
that there has been collusion in their case are more likely to
complain to groups like mine than people who think that the case
was already solved by police. Unfortunately we do not see the
happy people in society, we see the unhappy ones.
Q391 Lady Hermon: In relation to
the cases that you are taking forward with families, to what extent
does your organisation actually supply or assist the families
in presenting lists of questions to HET?
Ms Winter: It depends on what
the family wants. Sometimes the family comes with their own list
of questions that they have already developed. The attitude we
have taken to the HET is that there is no point with an experiment
like that—and it is a unique experiment—setting it
up to fail. We have tried to assist them as much as we can. For
example, they will tell us what cases they are working on at the
moment and ask us if we have any information. If we do, if it
is publicly available information, we will just point them to
it; if it is confidential information we will ask the family whether
they are happy for us to pass that information on. In some of
the cases we worked on, partly because of the problem that Mr
Murphy was mentioning of their being such a paucity of evidence
available in some cases to the Historical Enquiries Team, we have
done our own research and produced a report on the case and handed
over to the HET everything we have discovered. We do not have
their powers or their resources, but I do think that we are often
able to suggest lines of enquiry to them that they have found
useful to follow.
Q392 Lady Hermon: How is your organisation
able to come forward with those lines of enquiry?
Ms Winter: It is very standard
research work. We go to the cuttings library in Belfast. We get
the inquest papers if there was an inquest—there usually
was—and then there are witness statements there and so.
We interview the family themselves and sometimes we will interview
witnesses if they are still around.
Q393 Lady Hermon: Does your organisation
actually supply questions on behalf of the family to HET?
Ms Winter: If the family asks
us to, yes, but it is always in consultation with the family.
They are not our questions, they are their questions.
Q394 Lady Hermon: Moving to the Police
Ombudsman, I was quite disconcerted by some of the comments about
the Police Ombudsman's work. You have made an assessment that
in fact the investigation of the Police Ombudsman's Office is
"patchy and superficial in some cases".
Ms Winter: Yes, in some cases.
Q395 Lady Hermon: Since those cases
are presumably in the public domain already and the reports are
published and therefore confidentiality does not attach to them,
could you give us some examples of where it is patchy and superficial
and some that you would say were good investigations by Nuala
O'Loan and her team? She was there a very long time, seven years.
Ms Winter: Yes, indeed, and some
of her investigations have been very good and Operation Ballast,
which is very much in the public domain, she obviously spent a
great deal of time on and went into matters meticulously. When
I say "she" I obviously mean her office.
Q396 Lady Hermon: What about the
patchy and superficial ones? That is quite a damning indictment
and I would just like to know some examples.
Ms Winter: It is, yes. My difficulty
in giving you examples is that although you say reports are published,
reports are not published on all of the Ombudsman's cases and
often the full report is not published.
Q397 Chairman: I do understand your
reticence because these are highly sensitive matters, but would
you reflect on Lady Hermon's question and would you please communicate
with our clerk after this session. If you could just indicate
for the Committee's information alone, with the assurance from
me that we will not break any confidentiality, which cases were
well dealt with and which were patchy. If you could do that sort
of thing it would be very helpful. Could we ask you to do that?
Ms Winter: Yes, of course.
Q398 Lady Hermon: My final question
relates to a wish, it seems, for the Police Ombudsman to be more
"family friendly". What changes would you like the Police
Ombudsman to make to be more family friendly?
Ms Winter: It would be helpful
if they would keep families informed of progress on a more regular
basis. That is one of the most common complaints we have about
his office. A family will come to us and say, "I complained
to the Ombudsman a year and a half ago, the last time I heard
anything was six months ago and I have no idea what is going on".
Q399 Chairman: This is in contrast
to the HET where you feel they keep the families better informed.
Ms Winter: Yes.
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