Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)

MR VINCENT SHERIDAN, MR EAMONN DONAGHY AND MR BRIAN KEEGAN

27 FEBRUARY 2008

  Q1 Chairman: Mr Sheridan, could I welcome you and your two colleagues. Before I ask you to say something, could I just make it plain first of all that we are delighted to see you and, secondly, that we are seeing you at your request, and the Committee at the moment is embarked upon a very important inquiry into aspects of policing in Northern Ireland and this is very much a one-off session. We have had requests from others as a result of acceding to your request but the Committee will deliberate when it has heard your evidence and had a chance to assess it as to whether we think it is appropriate for us to take this matter further or not. The commitment we made was to see you, which we are delighted to do, and that is what we are here for this afternoon. The House is engaged in a debate on the European Treaty, as you know, and there will be votes shortly after quarter past four, so I would like to feel that we can complete our evidence by then at the latest and we may finish a little before that. Would you like to introduce your two colleagues, Mr Sheridan, and then I believe you would like to make a short opening statement?

  Mr Sheridan: Thank you, Chairman. I am Vincent Sheridan, the current President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland. On my left is Brian Keegan, who is the Executive Director Tax in the Institute, and Eamonn Donaghy, on my right, is the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Tax Committee of the Institute. If I may then, Chairman, make a few opening remarks. First of all, I do thank you and your colleagues for the invitation to give evidence on behalf of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland in relation to the Varney Review of Tax Policy in Northern Ireland. As an Institute we represent over 17,000 accountants operating in both Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland. The only banner that we carry is that of promoting economic development and sustainable employment and prosperity on the island of Ireland. As an Institute, we believe that we have made a significant contribution to the so-called Celtic Tiger of economic growth in the Republic of Ireland over the past 15 years. We fully support the introduction of a reduced tax rate in Northern Ireland of 12.5 %. Our support stems from our first-hand experience of its effect in the Irish economy. Sir David Varney was quite right to say that there was more to economic development in the Republic of Ireland than the tax rate—issues like the availability of a well-educated and skilled workforce, a stable and supportive pro-business culture, enormous goodwill, particularly in the USA, a sophisticated legal and regulatory environment, membership of the European Union, an English-speaking environment and reasonable communications and transport infrastructure. All these and more play their part, Chairman, but all are also present in Northern Ireland. However, low corporate tax rate provides the vital stimulant for foreign direct investment to choose Ireland ahead of other destinations with many similar attributes. Make no mistake, ladies and gentlemen, it is foreign direct investment that is the key to economic development in Northern Ireland and the means by which reliance on public sector employment and subsidies from other parts of the UK can be replaced by sustainable long-term and better-paying employment in the private sector. Clearly there are technical and administrative obstacles to be overcome, but these are surmountable, and the prize is worth the effort. The biggest potential obstacle is the constraint imposed by the European Union state aid prohibitions, and we are delighted that Sir David's report agrees with our submission that this barrier does not exist. There is a potential for loss of revenue from the proposed rate of corporation tax. Sir David in his report put this at approximately £280 million. We do not necessarily agree with the formula used, we think it will probably be lower than that, but even if it was this figure we would point out that this represents only 4% of the current level of UK subsidies going into Northern Ireland. However, we are extremely confident that any so-called loss of revenue would be replaced by higher income tax, VAT, capital receipts, and lower levels of social welfare and other dependency contributions. Indeed, we see no reason why the experience of the Republic of Ireland, ie that higher corporation tax receipts followed a reduction in the rate, would not be followed in Northern Ireland. We note that the Review does not fully explore the possible beneficial effects of other forms of tax incentive to help redress the economic imbalance within Northern Ireland which all commentators, including Sir David, have identified. We are clearly of the view that alternative tax incentives are very much a sub-optimal solution. They do not come near a reduced rate of corporation tax, but we would acknowledge that it is clear that even some specific tax incentives that do not impact on the main rate of corporation tax would be of some benefit to the Northern Ireland economy as it tries to compete in the global quest for foreign direct investment. Overall, while the Varney Report cogently identifies the challenges, it actually offers little in terms of solutions. A more proactive approach is required which builds up the potential of a Northern Ireland economy—and the importance of the Northern Ireland economy was actually noted in the Review. The case for a reduced rate of corporation tax in Northern Ireland has been strengthened by this report, not weakened even though the conclusions were non-supportive. Chairman, the policy arguments have disappeared; they do not hold up. It is now clearly a political matter and we would call on the Government to seize the opportunity today to invest in Northern Ireland and in the medium to long term give Northern Ireland a chance to reduce its dependency on direct subsidies in order to secure sustainable long-term development. Thank you.

  Q2  Chairman: Thank you for that, it was a very precise and clear statement and I am grateful for it. Before I embark on the main question, could you just clarify a few small points. You said that you represent 17,000 accountants in the island of Ireland. How many of those are in fact from the North?

  Mr Sheridan: I think it works out at about 4,000 or 5,000 in the North and the balance in the Republic.

  Q3  Chairman: Yes, and you yourself are?

  Mr Sheridan: I am in the Republic, I am resident in Dublin.

  Q4  Chairman: But you are doing a good neighbourly act by leading this group this afternoon?

  Mr Sheridan: I would not call it neighbourly in the sense that we are a Northern Ireland Institute. The Institute of Chartered Accountants represents accountants right across the island and I would think that next year's President, who will be from Belfast, would appear before a committee such as this in Dublin if called upon.

  Q5  Chairman: The other two gentlemen are both from Northern Ireland?

  Mr Sheridan: Brian is the Director of Tax for the Institute and he actually resides in Cork which is even further south. Eamonn is Chairman of the Northern Ireland Tax Committee and resides in Northern Ireland.

  Mr Donaghy: Chairman, I can confirm that I am from Belfast.

  Q6  Chairman: That at least is a relief, I thought we were about to become an international committee but, anyhow, thank you very much indeed for clarifying that. Of your members then, roughly 4,000 or 5,000 are from the North and the rest are from the Republic, but you work as an all of Ireland body and you have sub-committees presumably in Belfast?

  Mr Donaghy: That is correct.

  Q7  Chairman: And you are content being from Northern Ireland in saying that the North is properly and fully represented in the Councils of this organisation?

  Mr Donaghy: Absolutely, I think that the all Ireland Institute of Chartered Accountants (which predates 1921 and the partition) has been one of the founding organisations in terms of economic co-operation North and South and very much it is representative of all its members. As I think the President said, next year's President will be from Belfast and on the basis that our Council is fully representative of all our members, I am very happy that this organisation is representative of all our members in the North.

  Q8  Chairman: I would just say that the Committee pays regular visits to the Republic and we are delighted in the increased co-operation on many fronts that we see in our visits, so you are extremely welcome. I leave it to you, Mr Sheridan, to field the questions as you choose. I will direct them to you but if you wish Mr Donaghy and Mr Keegan to take some, that is up to you. How would you describe the current state of the Northern Ireland economy and what are the main challenges, in your view, the economy faces?

  Mr Sheridan: I will give my overview and then pass over to Eamonn who has more direct experience. The stability that has come to Northern Ireland as a result of the political agreement has been tremendous and clearly was a first essential in seeking to get economic development. That is a quid pro quo, but economic development will not necessarily follow automatically from that, and this is our particular concern as an Institute. We believe that a lot more has to happen. We believe that political policy decisions have to be made. There are an awful lot of the features that I mentioned present in Northern Ireland—a well-educated workforce, sophisticated legal and regulatory environment—that are present in the Republic, but it is our very firm view in, and having lived through it I can attest to this personally, that foreign direct investment is the key to economic growth. The presence of a low tax rate was vital to securing that in the Republic. Given that Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic, it is very difficult to compete for foreign investment against the Republic of Ireland. I would say, though, that I think that there is a huge dividend to be garnered not only from Northern Ireland as a result of what we are lobbying for but also for the Republic. I think that the concept of a Northern Ireland economy is a huge rebirth for the entire island, and indeed I would say for the rest of the UK, because there are two things that one is immediately struck by in terms of the Northern Ireland economy. One is the amount of subsidies that are required from the UK, and if they can be reduced I think there is a win-win situation for the entire UK. Secondly, when you get down to employment in Northern Ireland, the proportion of the workforce that is employed in the public sector does not appear to us to be a healthy sign of an economy. The more we can get the private sector on board the better, and hopefully then the situation that exists now, where the average rate of pay from employers in the North is about 70% in that of the rest of the United Kingdom, the rising tide would lift that very important statistic.

  Mr Donaghy: Chairman, I would like to echo something of what the President said. The Northern Ireland economy is a difficult animal to summarise in a short period of time. However, I think looking at some headline statistics could give a misleading view. The record employment rates that are in Northern Ireland at the minute would give the impression that the Northern Ireland economy is very buoyant and very strong. I think that there are a couple of key issues that can be masked by that statistic. Firstly, there is a huge level of economic inactivity from a large number of people who are currently claiming benefits, people who have never got into the workplace and who are incentivised effectively to stay out of the workplace. The lack of private sector investment into Northern Ireland means that it is difficult for those people to be incentivised to leave that economic inactivity. I think also the amount of public sector finance that has been introduced into Northern Ireland, and the growth from the public sector purse over the last number of years, has made a very significant impact into the Northern Ireland economy. I hate introducing statistics but the one that grabs me is that 61% of Northern Ireland GDP comes from the public sector. I think that is both unsustainable and unhealthy. As public finances start to tighten over the next number of years as anticipated, the question I would have to ask is how are we going to replace that lost economic activity and the answer must come from the private sector. The private sector needs a stimulus in order to grow and to develop, so from that perspective it is difficult to put a shape on it, but I do believe that the economic future of Northern Ireland is something that is currently unsure and potentially unstable and something that a reduced corporation tax rate would help to bolster and develop.

  Q9  Chairman: But putting that on one side for a minute—and I accept your strong views on that—both the United Kingdom Government and the new Executive in Northern Ireland are taking steps to try and overcome some of the challenges that you have referred to, and to create incentives, and in particular we are having our minds increasingly focused on this major Investment Conference that is to take place at the end of the first week in May. How would you as professional accountants assess a) the success of the Executive and the UK Government in the steps that they are taking and b) the potential for this Investment Conference in May?

  Mr Donaghy: I certainly welcome greatly, as does the Institute, the Investment Conference in May. I think the bringing of US multi-nationals to the shores of Northern Ireland to look at Northern Ireland as a potential place for investment is absolutely to be welcomed. Certainly all the other stimuli that are being looked at in terms of increased training and increased facilities and increased infrastructure also have to be fully welcomed. I would ask Brian maybe to comment on the impact in the South of Ireland. I think there is a misapprehension that if we get a low corporation tax rate that will be fantastic and that is all we need. I would refer to the reduced corporation tax rate as maybe the "X Factor" in terms of being able to ignite the growth that potentially could happen. It is that stimulus certainly in the foreign direct investment world that is required to bring together all the other issues that are being looked at.

  Q10  Chairman: But you are not going to get this reduced corporate tax in the short term. You are quite legitimately campaigning for it and you are hoping to elicit the support of this Committee in that campaign, and that again is entirely legitimate, but in the short term you are not going to get it. You are not saying to the Committee—or are you saying—that the potential for the conference in May, if the other measures are being taken, will be negated by a failure to reduce corporation tax? You are not saying that, are you?

  Mr Donaghy: I think "negated" would be too strong a word. What we will try and do is find a way of optimising the potential from the conference. I agree that it is fantastic to get the economic superpower that the US is to come and think about Northern Ireland, but maybe my colleague Brian can give you a perspective as to the type of things that will be on a chief executive officer's shopping lists. When comparing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as two potential locations for foreign direct investment, we believe that a lot of the items on that shopping list would be similar if not identical. However, there is one very important piece that is missing from that shopping list, as we referred to earlier, the X Factor, the idea of being able to go and say to a CEO, "Yes, we can compete with other jurisdictions especially the Republic of Ireland with a 12.5% rate so do not make your decision based on tax; make your decision based on other economic factors."

  Q11  Chairman: Your fear is that having come to Belfast to enjoy the hospitality and scenery and all the rest of it, they will then go and invest in the South? That is your fear, is it?

  Mr Sheridan: Chairman, if I can just address that. I think there is absolutely enormous international goodwill towards Northern Ireland in particular because of the history of problems and the fact that now there is a new beginning. However, I absolutely and sincerely believe that the economy is going to face a huge uphill battle in turning that goodwill into positive decisions when it comes to final decision time to invest abroad. The first decision that an international company makes is whether they go abroad and then they think where. They will certainly look at Northern Ireland, but to make that final decision my own belief is that it is going to be an insurmountable task for any serious investment unless there is a competitive rate of tax with the rest of the island. I think that is the political challenge.

  Q12  Chairman: Did you want to come in Mr Keegan?

  Mr Keegan: If I could just make the observation, Chairman, the very fact that there is an Investment Conference clearly is to be welcomed, but it does say something about the status of Northern Ireland in terms of the agenda for the FDI decision-makers. I do not think that should be overlooked. My colleagues have argued that 12.5% is key to the FDI decision-making process but there is a marketing aspect to that as well. It puts the region right up at the top of the decision-makers' agenda, and certain regions in the world have already been branded as potential destinations or potential locales for foreign direct investment. We feel it will take more than an Investment Conference to imprint on the minds of the FDI decision-makers that Northern Ireland is one of the key target destinations. We very much welcome the initiative but we feel it is a step forward rather than perhaps a compelling solution to the FDI decision-making process.

  Q13  Chairman: One final question from me, and I want to go to Lady Hermon and to Mr Wilson. You are speaking here for a body which has the majority of members in the South. Is there a unanimity within your Institute for the line that you are arguing, bearing in mind the extra competitive power that the North would then have vis-a"-vis the South?

  Mr Sheridan: We have not gone to our members seeking a plebiscite, Chairman, but I believe there is total unanimity. We have, as Eamonn pointed out, a very representative Council (which is the governing body of the Institute) and the Council are totally behind the support that the Institute has given. This has not been just in respect of today. The Institute has been involved in this campaign for some considerable time, so total unanimity in our Institute would be my view. There are opportunities for the Republic. I think that it would create a new dynamism for the all-Ireland economy. Do not forget that foreign direct investment into Northern Ireland will include direct investment from the Republic. The Republic now has become quite a large overseas investor in the US. There is greater investment going into the US from the Republic of Ireland than there is from Germany into the US. I think the Republic of Ireland is now the fourth largest investor in the United Kingdom. There is opportunity on both sides of the border, but I think we will be a better Ireland if there is a developing economy in the North.

  Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Lady Hermon wants to come in briefly on this point and then I want to bring Mr Wilson in on the next section.

  Q14  Lady Hermon: Could I invite our witnesses this afternoon to be a little bit more specific here. You have talked about foreign direct investment. Could I ask Mr Donaghy because he is Belfast-based, when this wonderful conference does take place at the beginning of May in Belfast, specifically and ideally what types of foreign direct investment should be coming to Northern Ireland? What would you expect to see ideally coming from the Republic of Ireland and investing in Northern Ireland?

  Mr Donaghy: I think in today's world the concept of bringing in heavy manufacturing or a manufacturing base has passed. I think the move towards Asia and India has meant that is not going to happen. I think the way forward is based on the likes of intellectual property and telecommunications software. The idea would be to try and attract organisations to come to Northern Ireland to act as a central European hub, on the basis that what we are looking to try to achieve is to get organisations to come to Northern Ireland wanting to make profit, as opposed to organisations coming to Northern Ireland and wanting to spend money. Grants, subsidies, all the stuff that has been used over the years, both in the South and in the North, absolutely do have an attraction, but I think there is the encouragement to spend as opposed to the encouragement to generate profit. The type of organisations we would be looking to bring in would be the ones that we would hope would locate here and potentially do their development in Northern Ireland, with the objective of retaining a significant chunk of the profits derived from those activities in the North, and then we would still get the tax at 12.5%.

  Q15  Lady Hermon: How influenced would those types of industries be by our corporation tax, particularly in light of the fact we have two very good universities, the intellectual property and the skills base to meet that sort of demand? How influenced would they be by a lower rate of corporation tax?

  Mr Donaghy: Maybe Brian will give you a comment on how that has worked in the Republic of Ireland. I rather suspect that over the last ten years, when the type of FDI that we are talking about has been looking to locate in Europe, political instability has not helped Northern Ireland's cause but when one looks at the amount of investment that has gone into the Republic of Ireland and the investment that has gone into Northern Ireland, given similar educational establishments, given a similar hard-working English-speaking type of population the question is why has virtually all of that gone to the Republic of Ireland and very little in comparison gone to Northern Ireland? Our belief is that the tax rate has been a significant influencing factor in these investment decisions.

  Mr Keegan: If I can just make an observation in regards to Lady Hermon's question. This is borne out of having trained in an international accountancy practice and having dealt with FDI projects. The kind of investment that we are looking for—high tech, high value-added, intellectual property-based type projects—originate largely in the United States. The parent companies are predominantly US based and I make this as an observation rather than a comment. A factor of the decision-making process within those organisations and that they regard corporation tax as a cost to business rather than as a levy on profits. In my experience of speaking to members who are involved in FDI projects, this really ranks very, very high in the minds of those decision-makers. I think that is a particular aspect which is worth highlighting to the Committee today.

  Lady Hermon: Thank you.

  Q16  Sammy Wilson: You mention, Eamonn, that a lot of the investment projects have gone to the Republic in the past, and I asked the question why they were not coming to Northern Ireland, and in the past was a big factor of course not the political instability in Northern Ireland, and now that the political instability has been not completely dealt with but it is receding, are there not big advantages which Northern Ireland now has over the Irish Republic such as an available supply of skilled labour, and we are already seeing overheating in the Irish economy, the fact that rents on property in Belfast are much lower than in Dublin, I think it is about a third, if not less, and that tax incentives probably bring tax rates down to maybe even below what they are in the Republic. Are all of those things which Varney has identified not sufficient to offset the plans to bring corporation tax down to a similar level in the headline rate?

  Mr Donaghy: I will take the two points in reverse order. Firstly in terms of the other incentives that are available, we have looked at a way of analysing the other incentives that would be in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That is a very difficult and complex process depending on expenditure, depending on timing, depending on exactly where you are going to locate. Unfortunately, large organisations tend to want to move fairly quickly and they want to be able to do an analysis of the various countries that they could locate in to say, "Well, if we stay here for five years we might get X amount of capital allowances and possibly a bit of research and development depending on what we spend." Yes, that can mathematically be worked out but I think that organisations want to see decision-making based on high-level issues, and I think the rate of corporation tax is something that can be calculated quickly and understood by boards of directors and chief executive officers. I think the other thing to note is that in 1995 the concept of Ireland being a low tax rate jurisdiction was not unheard of but was fairly novel. I think we have to realise that in today's FDI world where companies and businesses are very mobile, it is not just the Republic in town; there is Eastern Europe, Singapore, Costa Rica where businesses can locate, and therefore this is not just Northern Ireland competing against the Republic of Ireland; this is Northern Ireland in the big bad world of foreign direct investment trying to make its case. Certainly if Ireland were looked at, you are absolutely right, there are lots of advantages in Northern Ireland compared to the Republic of Ireland, but if Northern Ireland is not on the shortlist in the first place because of its tax rate, then unfortunately those differences and those advantages that Northern Ireland have may never get looked at.

  Q17  Stephen Pound: Are you talking about back office relocation or primary plant?

  Mr Donaghy: What we would ideally like to see is more than just back office.

  Q18  Stephen Pound: Is that the sort of structure you are talking about in countries like Costa Rica?

  Mr Donaghy: In many ways it is difficult. Costa Rica has made a niche market for itself in terms of research and development and back office. Any investment into Northern Ireland is going to be welcome but what we are looking for is sustainable, long-term investment where companies want to locate their profits as opposed to just necessarily reducing their costs.

  Mr Keegan: Just one supplementary point if I might. You are absolutely right, Mr Wilson, in terms of labour costs there are advantages and in terms of rent rolls there are advantages. What we would love to see in Northern Ireland is highly profitable businesses, so if you have got an FDI company making profits of £100 million, which is not unheard of, with a rent roll of maybe £5 million year and staff costs possibly in the region of £30 million, yes, the advantages are there, but if you are looking at the tax differential on the profit of 100 million, which amounts to 15.5%, those very strong advantages, which we fully accept are there, economically are completely wiped out.

  Q19  Sammy Wilson: This is where I am at a bit of a loss to maybe follow all that you are saying because while you are saying that the main stimulus was tax, Varney in his report indicated—and as an economics teacher I used to teach about ceteris paribus, all other things being equal, and everything else—that during the period when a lot of this foreign direct investment was being attracted to the Irish Republic the tax rates actually went up from 0% on firms which were exporting more than 50% of their output to 10%, and then to 12.5%, so therefore he did not believe that the tax stimulus was the major factor, and he pointed to all of the other things such as the supply of skilled labour, English speaking, European Union help with infrastructure, et cetera. So on the one hand you are saying it is absolutely essential and on the other hand Varney is saying it is not absolutely essential because look what has happened to tax rates at the same time as all of these other things. Who is right on that and how do you square those two arguments?

  Mr Keegan: I think, Mr Wilson, you make a very good point and I think Sir David made a very good point but he may have overlooked, to my mind at least, what is a very important issue. If we think about the kind of industries that were truly mobile in the 1970s and 1980s they were typically either heavy manufacturing or assembly. The high-tech industries that we take completely for granted now just did not exist. The computer industry was embryonic, the entertainment industry has burgeoned out of all proportion. We had an export sales relief rate of 0% and we have had that since the mid-1950s, but there was no mobile business to be attracted in simply because that was not the nature of the industries in the 1950s and 1960s. It just so happened that the 10% rate of manufacturing that applied in Ireland in the 1990s caught a wave of new mobile industry and new services, particularly high-tech services. Another key area was the area of pharmaceuticals and osteo/polio aids and medical appliances where there were enormous technological leaps within that industry over that period of years. Suddenly those businesses became truly mobile and it actually made sense to relocate those businesses closer to a target market in Europe, or for whatever good commercial reason was there. I am not so sure it was the fact that those low rates were not working; there were low rates, but they were not working in an environment where there was a normal business really in a position to take advantage of them. We hit it lucky in the 1990s because we had this rate of manufacturing relief—we called it the 10% rate—and manufacturing basically meant anything that was employment grant-assisted. Things that we would not traditionally regard as manufacturing in the true sense of it, things like software development, things like some of the service provision that qualified as manufacturing by virtue of that legislation which said you are grant aided so you can call it that and everything is fine, would come under that heading, and that did attract industries. The difficulty with that though was that Europe said, "This is not on. What you are doing is effectively you are making up a tax rule which focuses in on one particular sector." It was at that stage that we introduced the generalised reduced corporation tax rate. I make that point first of all. My second feeling on the Varney Report—and I do not mean to criticise the report because it is a very good report in many respects—is that one of the things he missed was when Sir David talks about FDI he talks about FDI in manufacturing; he does not think in terms of FDI in services. In fact, services has been the big area where Northern Ireland has scored particularly in the last ten years and we are now one of the world's leading service exporters in Europe population-wise. I think if you factor in those two points it may help, I hope, to explain the point you raise.

  Mr Sheridan: I think it is also where the opportunity lies and the opportunity lies in services going forward in terms of foreign direct investment. I am not so sure that there is that much mobile manufacturing investment going on, but if it is it is certainly not going to come to these islands; it will go somewhere else. It is really in services and I think it is disingenuous in the report to suggest that the rate goes from 0% to 12.5%. Tax is a relative game so there is no such thing as an objective tax rate that is good or bad. It is just there is a tax rate that is a lot more attractive or a lot less attractive and business, seeking to maximise its return on investment, will go towards the place where the tax rates are more attractive. There is no objective basis for it; it is a relative game.


 
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