Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
RT HON
PETER ROBINSON
MP
27 OCTOBER 2008
Q20 Chairman: First Minister, I wonder
if we could move towards the subject of our current inquiry, which
is cross-border co-operation. Could you perhaps set the scene
for us by telling us what your relations are like with the Government
of the Republic?
Mr Robinson: I have publicly indicated,
Sir Patrick, that I do not believe that we have had better relationships
with the Irish Republic at any time in our history than we have
at the present time. The Government of the Irish Republic have
been helpful in many ways to us in terms of the steps that they
have had to take, and I particularly would mention the present
Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, who when he was Finance Minister took
a step which was not risk-free from his point of view in terms
of looking at the financial services sector based as they are
in Dublin and the international financial services centre there.
They had a rule which ensured, from the public's point of view
quite understandably so, that they would not commit companies
based there to place jobs outside of the Republic of Ireland.
There was a win-win situation there and the then Finance Minister
identified it and we had discussions about the matter and they
changed the rules in terms of giving the financial institutions
a clear indication that they could set up in Northern Ireland
without any penalty being imposed on them. At that stage there
were something like 9,000 vacancies in the financial services
sector in the Republic so it provided lots of opportunities and,
in terms of advertising, setting up a business in financial services
in Northern Ireland can probably be done at half the price as
doing it anywhere else in Europe. The cost of commercial leasings
in Northern Ireland, the lower wage costs, all play very well
in terms of a market which more than at any time in the past would
have been looking at its cost base and if there are people within
the financial sector who are looking at reducing costs then Northern
Ireland is the right place to look at. To that extent it was not
simply a case of wishing us well, there were practical steps being
taken. The other practical step was the recognition that there
were people in the Irish Republic who used a north-west gateway
and there were benefits in road improvements in Northern Ireland
for people in the Irish Republic and under their National Development
Plan they are giving funding to go towards improvements. There
have been practical steps taken by them but, as you would know,
the relationship particularly with the Unionist community had
not always been good in the past but there is a very relaxed view
as the confidence of Unionism has increased over recent years
and those relationships are going well, as indeed are the structural
relationships that we have where we look at matters of mutual
interest in order to co-operate.
Q21 Chairman: Has the economic downturn
in the Republic had any effect?
Mr Robinson: Yes, although not
entirely a negative one. If you live in Newry or own a shop in
Newry you would probably be benefiting. It is swings and roundabouts.
There were times when I was on this Committee, Sir Patrick, that
we produced reports because of the difficulty in the fuel cost
differential, and aggregates was another area where there was
a differential, and now things are helping the Northern Ireland
economy probably more because of the pound but also because of
some of the decisions taken in the Budget in terms of the revenues
in the south.
Q22 Chairman: One of the things that
we have already looked at and will be following up tomorrow as
well is the co-operation between the PSNI and Garda Síochána.
How do you view this?
Mr Robinson: I am inclined to
duck the question by saying we do not have responsibility for
policing and justice.
Q23 Chairman: No, you do not.
Mr Robinson: But I suspect you
would not let me get away as easily as that!
Q24 Chairman: Not really, no.
Mr Robinson: There are many areas
where it just makes good commonsense to have co-operation between
the police forces on both sides of the border. There is a good
relationship. I am sure that there are practical things that could
be done to improve that relationship, but we have seen the benefit
in some instances where joint raids took place on certain premises
on the border to ensure that somebody did not move from one area
to another. There is practical co-operation in terms of following
up cases, and you have indicated that you are meeting with the
Quinn family, for instance, and that is one area where the two
sets of police officers have been co-operating.
Q25 Chairman: Indeed. Whilst, of
course, accepting the caveat at the beginning of your last answer,
because we, of course, have that responsibility at the moment
and are answerable to Westminster Parliament we will be looking
into areas of cross-border co-operation. In your opinion, are
there areas where this could be strengthened and improved, or
are there any areas where the co-operation is sadly lacking?
Mr Robinson: At the Chief Constable/Garda
Commissioner level there is a high level of agreement as to how
things should move in terms of co-operation, and that is probably
shared at the higher ranks of both police forces. However, it
does not always play out down at the grassroots level and I continue
to get some reports where it is not as it should be. It is a case
of ensuring that the agreements that are reached and the co-operation
that does exist at the higher level is seen on the ground floor.
In many instances it is, and I do not want to cast aspersions
at the street level where it is not due, but there are instances
where very clearly it is not working uniformly across the Province.
Q26 Lady Hermon: First Minister,
might I just ask whether you think SOCA, the Serious Organised
Crime Agency, has been successful in Northern Ireland since it
merged with the Criminal Assets Recovery Agency, which did a tremendous
job and did it very publicly and we were able to read about its
successes? Are you concerned about the lack of publicity around
the activities of SOCA in Northern Ireland?
Mr Robinson: I was concerned when
the proposal was first announced. I indicated to the Secretary
of State and to ministers that I was not happy with that decision.
We received assurances, but I am not convinced that we are getting
out of the new organisation what we got out of the original organisation.
I think that they look at a different level of crime which in
a small area like Northern Ireland may not be as appropriate.
I do not like being negative, but I do not think things are going
as smoothly as they should and I would far rather have had the
original arrangements.
Q27 Lady Hermon: Is this something
that you have raised with Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, at
Westminster, or is this something that perhaps you would like
to raise jointly with Unionist colleagues at Westminster?
Mr Robinson: I would be delighted
to work with Unionist colleagues at Westminster on this and other
issues. It might be all the stronger if we could even be joined
by some colleagues from the Nationalist position on this which
should not be a party political issue.
Chairman: Quite right.
Lady Hermon: I take that as an invitation
to my colleagues.
Q28 Dr McDonnell: I wonder if we
could go back a little bit because you mentioned the economic
downturn and I am pretty concerned about the disadvantaged in
our society and whereas poverty and marginalisation are not contained
in any one side of the divide that we have, they tend to be significantly
worse on the Nationalist side. Does the Executive not meeting
and agreeing and producing an economic package significantly affect
the impoverished and marginalised elements of the Nationalist
community out there?
Mr Robinson: I think the Executive
not meeting removes the platform where these issues would have
been dealt with and, therefore, slows down the process of agreement.
It does not mean that it is impossible to reach agreement through
other methodologies but when you have cross-cutting issues it
becomes all the more difficult to do so. Unquestionably, not just
for the Nationalist community but for the whole community, I believe
that the process of agreeing measures that would alleviate hardship
has increased very substantially and I would want to see a set
of circumstances where the Executive would meet, even if only
to deal with that matter. I have indicated to you in the past
that I am quite happy to have an agenda which is open in order
to ensure that members of the Executive can bring whatever aspects
of their concerns they wish, but let us have a meeting of the
Executive to deal solely with the issue of the financial and economic
package. I would be quite happy to invite the Executive to meet
on that basis.
Q29 Chairman: Have you made that
specific request to the deputy First Minister or are you doing
so now?
Mr Robinson: I indicated that
I was happy to have an open agenda which would include that matter.
I am now being even more generous, Sir Patrick, by—
Q30 Chairman: This is a specific
invitation issued here and now—
Mr Robinson: You have heard it
first, Sir Patrick, yes.
Q31 Chairman: --- to the deputy,
who could have been here, and sadly is not, but doubtless it will
be relayed to him.
Mr Robinson: There is agreement
in every political party that we are facing circumstances which
are quite unique, they are unprecedented in financial terms, even
if one looks back at previous recessions or depressions. What
we are facing now is entirely different.
Q32 Chairman: It is.
Mr Robinson: Clearly the Northern
Ireland Assembly cannot deal with issues which are of a global
nature, but we can deal with some of the consequences and we are
capable of putting together a package that would, at least at
the margins, alleviate some of the pain. I am suggesting that
even if we meet for nothing else, the Executive should meet for
that purpose.
Q33 Chairman: Let us hope that invitation
is not only transmitted but is accepted. When you were making
your comments earlier you said that you could envisage a package
not dissimilar from those worked out in Scotland and Wales. Have
you had close discussion with your counterparts, the First Ministers
in Scotland and in Wales?
Mr Robinson: Yes, because although
some of my ministerial colleagues will not sit down with us all
here in Northern Ireland, they were prepared to sit down and talk
about these issues in Edinburgh at the BIC, British-Irish Council.
We met with the First Ministers from Scotland and Wales, and Paul
Murphy was representing Her Majesty's Government, and we had representatives
from Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man as well and, of course,
we had Brian Cowen present who was representing the Government
of the Irish Republic. There was a wide-ranging discussion in
which we looked at a number of the issues and agreed that we would
exchange our own best practice on these matters, and there have
been ongoing discussions between the finance ministers of the
various jurisdictions, but particularly Scotland, Wales and Northern
Ireland. They have sent us details of the packages that they produced
and we have given them some details of the issues that we are
looking at. We have a fair idea and there has been discussion
not only at the BIC but at the margins as well at these further
meetings.
Q34 Chairman: Do you keep in regular
touch on a personal basis with the First Ministers in Scotland
and Wales outside the BIC?
Mr Robinson: Yes. We had a trilateral
very recently and the finance ministers have trilaterals and sometimes
quadrilaterals including Treasury involvement. That has been an
expanding part of the institutions. There has been much more by
way of east-west contact, not just, I suspect, because of, although
very clearly because of, our interest in extending that because
it was very much the poorer cousin. The north-south seemed to
be getting all of the attention in previous administrations and
we have been seeking to redress that balance and get the benefits
of the networking that can go on on an east-west basis as well.
The changes that took place in terms of the composition of the
Scottish Government and Welsh Executive perhaps also added some
impetus to it.
Q35 Kate Hoey: First Minister, you
talked earlier about the importance of confidence in the political
process in terms of the business opportunities and so on. How
concerned are you about what will inevitably be huge international
publicity, certainly in the UK, to this coming Sunday's parades,
particularly the role of the Parades Commission in what to most
ordinary people would seem terribly bad commonsense to allow a
parade to happen and then when one group changed the timing of
their parade, as I understand it, the Parades Commission allowed
the other group to change their parade time? I am thinking of
representing my constituents in my area who are paying part of
their taxes to pay for Members of Parliament who do not even take
their seats in Westminster. How serious is this issue on Sunday?
Do you feel that it is time we looked at the role of the Parades
Commission?
Mr Robinson: Just to touch on
the latter part, we are looking at the role of the Parades Commission
and, indeed, there is a parades review which is almost complete
which deals very comprehensively with the Parades Commission issue.
Q36 Kate Hoey: Who will make the
final decision on that?
Mr Robinson: It will be a responsibility
that the First and deputy First Ministers have a role in, so it
is going to be a matter that we have to agree. Already there is
a wide degree of agreement between the deputy First Minister and
myself in terms of the general direction that the parades review
body is suggesting. However, on the wider question that you asked,
I just think that people in Northern Ireland believed that we
had moved away from this kind of tit-for-tat parading where a
deliberate attempt was being made to run a counter parade and
protest in order to disrupt the activities of the Army, in order
to intimidate and to provoke. I do not think that in the new society
that we are trying to create in Northern Ireland that was a sensible
step to take and I do not think it can be justified.
Q37 Chairman: Have you discussed
that with the deputy First Minister?
Mr Robinson: Yes, I have discussed
it with both the deputy First Minister and the leader of Sinn
Féin. I do not deny anybody the right to protest, I do
not deny anybody the right to demonstrate, but this is a half
hour Homecoming Parade, so there are 364 days, 23½ other
hours where they could have a protest or a demonstration. Bringing
large numbers of people into the centre of Belfast, where undoubtedly
there will be thousands of people coming to welcome home our troops,
is a recipe for disaster. Even though the Parades Commission have
taken their decision, a decision which I just do not believe they
can justify, a decision which I have to say surprised me somewhat
and was out of kilter with the discussion that I had with the
Parades Commission, I was surprised at the result given the questions
and views being expressed at the meeting that the deputy leader
of my party and I had with the Parades Commission, I just cannot
understand why any Parades Commission would allow the counter
demonstration to come so close to the original parade. The Chief
Constable does have responsibilities and he could take steps to
stop that parade from getting into an area where it could cause
even further problems. I know the intention of Sinn Féin
had always been that somehow the MoD would be a bit soft on these
kinds of issues and if they flexed their muscles these people
would not have the courage to go on with it, they would run away
from having a parade and they would have succeeded in disrupting
this activity and get credit within the Nationalist community
for doing so. I think it would be an absolute disaster if the
MoD allowed themselves to be bullied by Sinn Féin and those
people that they bring on to the streets.
Q38 Chairman: Did you manage to get
anywhere in your discussions with your deputy?
Mr Robinson: I am not sure that
the deputy First Minister has control over events in West Belfast.
Q39 Chairman: It is good to have
that on the record too. We are extremely grateful to you. We are
finishing just a little before time, although because you have
not altered your clocks in Belfast it appears to be 20 past four
when it is, in fact, only twenty past three.
Mr Robinson: Forward looking!
Chairman: Let us hope that by the time
you have altered that clock and it clearly is half past four the
deputy First Minister will have received the invitation which
Alasdair McDonnell has left the room to take, and he will accept
your invitation to convene a meeting of the Executive to discuss
the economic problems. If that happens this meeting will have
had one constructive outcome. We are very grateful to you, thank
you very much indeed. We wish you and the deputy First Minister,
in his absence, success in your endeavours and we hope that this
will be the first of a number of meetings with you. Thank you
very much.
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