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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 483-i House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
POLITICAL
DEVELOPMENTS IN
Senate
Chamber,
RT HON PETER ROBINSON MP, MLA Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 39
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the on Members present Sir Patrick Cormack, in the Chair Rosie Cooper Christopher Fraser Lady Hermon Kate Hoey Dr Alasdair McDonnell Stephen Pound ________________ Witness: Rt Hon Peter Robinson, MP, MLA, First Minister of Northern Ireland, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Can I formally welcome you, First Minister. This is the first time that you have given public oral evidence to this Committee, although we all have had the pleasure of knowing you as a colleague at Westminster. The first happy duty is to congratulate you on assuming the role of First Minister and to thank you for coming before the Committee. We are very sorry indeed that the Deputy First Minister is not with you. We did, of course, invite you both and we hope that on subsequent occasions he will be able to be with you. This is the first such session that we have had. Of course, you took office as First Minister in June this year and, having formed the new Executive in June, we have had a long period since then where that new Executive has not had a chance to meet. Would you like to say a word or two about that and what progress has been held up by this extraordinary failure of the Executive to meet, which is giving great concern throughout the United Kingdom to all of those people who are concerned about Northern Ireland and who rejoiced last year when the power sharing Executive was established? Mr Robinson: Sir Patrick, first of all,
thank you for your welcome and kind remarks.
I am delighted that the Committee is in Q2 Chairman: A pure accident! Mr Robinson: I hope that we manage to win some of them over as time goes on. You are right to draw attention to the issue that is probably uppermost in the public mind at the present time, and that is the failure of the Executive to meet, although I have to say that the ministers from the Ulster Unionist Party, the SDLP and the DUP all want that Executive to meet. Indeed, to some extent, they have been meeting privately to try to further issues which are their joint ministerial responsibility so that the harm that might be caused to the wider population is to some extent curtailed. However, it falls far short of what is required by our Ministerial Code for us to carry out these duties. They are political duties, but also legal responsibilities that we have. As the First Minister I have put forward a series of proposals as to the basis upon which the Executive could meet. I have approved the backlog of papers that were in office when I was appointed as First Minister and now almost 30 papers have been approved by me for consideration by the Executive, but in spite of that the Deputy First Minister has not agreed to the calling of an Executive meeting. The first reason given was that the agenda was one which was somehow the agenda of the DUP and that was not a possible way to go forward and until there was an agreeable agenda we could not move forward. First of all, I would point out that these are ministerial papers coming from every government department, including the Sinn Fein, SDLP and Ulster Unionist departments, so there is nothing by way of a DUP agenda contained in the subjects that will be discussed by the Executive. To ensure that there was no question about the fairness of the agenda, I made it very clear that I was happy to meet without an agenda where every minister could come and bring their own issues to the table, that nothing would be excluded in terms of the issues that the Executive could consider, but when that was offered I was then told that there had to be an agreed agenda. However, a letter has been exchanged between the Deputy First Minister and myself which included a number of items which the Deputy First Minister had cleared by way of Executive papers, papers which I had already cleared and, therefore, I think we can safely say were agreed papers, yet again a meeting was not permitted on the basis of those papers which were agreed. That frustrates the business of the Executive if it is not to be called except some outside party political agenda issue is cleared up. Of course, the issue of policing and justice, which is largely assumed to be the reason for the delay, is not an issue for the Executive to decide; it is a matter in the first instance for the Deputy First Minister and myself to agree how we move forward and for the Assembly to then support or otherwise the proposals they might put. Q3 Chairman: It has been said that you and the Deputy First Minister had, indeed, agreed on the mechanics of that but somehow that has been lost. Could you just enlighten us and tell us precisely what the position is and your relations with the Deputy First Minister, and it is a great pity he is not here to answer these questions, on this issue of policing and justice? Is the public perception that an agreement had been made but that the DUP had then become obdurate false? Mr Robinson: I will certainly respond to
the questions on policing and justice, but perhaps by first of all putting in
the caveat that the outcome agreement on policing and justice should have
nothing to do with the calling of an Executive meeting; executive meetings are
a legal responsibility we have. We are
required to do the business of government and if we have any thoughts for the
interests of the people of Q4 Chairman: You make that very clear. You say that last week had you been appearing before us you would have been tolerably optimistic. Do I infer from that remark that you are now pessimistic? What, apart from the issues you have just alluded to, induces that pessimism? Mr Robinson: The two issues that have
caused me to be much more pessimistic are, first of all, the retreat by Sinn
Fein on the agreement of 28 July, but also the reaction of Sinn Fein to the
Homecoming Parade of our troops from Chairman: Thank you very much for that. Q5 Kate Hoey: First Minister, I do not want to go back on what you have said on that issue, but I would like to go back to the question of the Executive not meeting. Clearly ministers are still working, quite a lot of government business is still getting through, but the average person in Northern Ireland at the moment must be concerned that there are some things that should be happening that are not. Could you take us through the most crucial things that you are not being able to do collectively as a Northern Ireland Government which would help the people of Northern Ireland precisely because of the Sinn Fein intransigence? Mr Robinson: All Executive ministers are doing a full range of their departmental duties with one exception, and that is going to an Executive meeting. Ministers are still carrying out their functions in terms of taking decisions on matters based on existing policy within the departments, based on existing legislation and based on existing financial allocations. Within those parameters the ministers are competent to take whatever decisions they like and are doing so. All of our government departments are operating fully in all of those aspects. What they cannot do under the present circumstances is when you come to wanting to change policy, to bring new initiatives in, particularly if they are novel, contentious or cross-cutting, the support of the Executive as a whole is required for that and if issues are cross-cutting then very clearly the forum where best you will be able, indeed where you are required legally, to have agreement is the Executive itself. I suppose the best example of that would be the measures that many of us would like to take in relation to dealing with the hardship that people are feeling as a result of the economic downturn. Here is a matter where a number of government departments have indicated that there are steps they would like to take which you would want to put into a package, a package perhaps not entirely dissimilar from that which was produced in Scotland or Wales, but a package which will be needed to deal with issues like fuel poverty, DETI have already put proposals forward in terms of how they deal with small and medium-sized businesses, all of those kinds of issues which ministers have views on and which they would want to have formed into a package and agreed by the Executive. The three parties, the Ulster Unionist Party, the SDLP and the DUP, have been meeting dealing with a package but there is the requirement for that to be agreed and the Executive is the obvious place for us to do that, otherwise we stretch the use of a procedure known as "urgent procedure" where ministers can ask for their papers to be approved in written form in the absence of an Executive meeting if an Executive meeting is not taking place that can deal with it. Q6 Chairman: Have you attempted to have discussions with Sinn Fein on that package? Mr Robinson: The Deputy First Minister and I have had a series of meetings with stakeholders. We have met with the construction industry, the business community, the energy regulator and the energy companies. We have had meetings with the banks and the lending institutions. Together we have had a wide range of meetings. We are well-informed of the steps that various people within the stakeholder group feel that we should take, and we will all have seen papers coming in from ministers, but without the Executive meeting taking place it is not possible for us to have the discussion. Q7 Chairman: In those meetings that you and the Deputy First Minister have had with these various important individuals and groups, have you and he seen eye-to-eye? Have you, as it were, spoken with one voice? Mr Robinson: We have been on the same page entirely in terms of how we should respond to these issues. That is what perhaps makes it even more frustrating, that this is not an issue that is likely to tear the Executive apart, this is an issue where I would have hoped that the Executive would have been wanting to move forward together and to show an interest in the concerns of the general community and have matters resolved. I do not think there is any difference between how the Deputy First Minister and I would approach these matters. Indeed, in our own discussions during the course of these meetings we were very much on the same page. Q8 Chairman: And your personal relationship remains amicable? Mr Robinson: Oh, yes. We are still dealing with all of the business that we have to without rancour but, I suppose, with increasing frustration perhaps on both sides. Q9 Chairman: Without rancour and without chuckles? Mr Robinson: We are there to do business in a professional and businesslike way and I think we are both signed up to do that. Q10 Dr McDonnell: First Minister, I would like to come back to your earlier introductory remarks. Not just for my own sake but for the sake of other colleagues, I would like to ask is the devolution of policing and justice now the only reason for the Executive's difficulties in meeting? I think there is an implication that other reasons have come about since the beginning of the summer and I just wondered if you have any comment on that. If policing and justice were sorted out in the morning, would everything be all right? Mr Robinson: I have my suspicions whether it would, though, like you, I have noted a change in the terminology being used by some. While the only issues of substance that are being discussed with us, 95% of those discussions that we would have on outstanding issues would be on the issue of policing and justice, there is the indication, I suspect because maybe within the Nationalist community there is not the same resonance on the issue of policing and justice as some people would like there to be, they are now characterising the difficulty as being one of a lack of partnership or respect. That is something that unless they were to define it we could not respond to, save to say that the best example that you could have of partnership would be the Executive meeting. Q11 Lady Hermon: First Minister, if the Secretary of State or the Northern Ireland Office were to be listening to this public session at Westminster, is there anything that the Secretary of State has done to help progress within the Executive, or is there anything that the Secretary of State or, indeed, the Prime Minister could do to actually help break the logjam within the Executive? Mr Robinson: Chairman, I hope the Secretary of State is listening. I am sure he is. Q12 Chairman: He is hanging on every word! Mr Robinson: I think the Secretary of
State, very rightly, would wish that the parties in Q13 Lady Hermon: But you are not minded to take it to court? Mr Robinson: I am not yet minded to take it to the court because I think if there is the prospect of us resolving these issues it is far better we resolve them than take them into that arena. As a general rule, I do not believe that we should be going to the courts to resolve political problems, but have no doubt what the courts would rule if they were to be consistent with the previous ruling. The other step we have is to go to the IMC. The IMC were given a role in terms of any breach by parties in their responsibilities. We could take that route as well. I suppose my response to that is the same as to the last one, that if there is a possibility of resolving matters through discussion that is the best way to go forward. Q14 Chairman: How long are you going to give it? Mr Robinson: I am always very reluctant to get into these questions about timescale, as everybody knows. I am condition-led in my approach to these matters. If I think there is a possibility of resolving these issues without taking recourse to the law or to other bodies then that is the best way to go forward. Q15 Chairman: If you could come to agreement, if you could, as it were, revive the letter of 28 July to which you have referred, roughly how long would it take, and I am not asking you for a specific time, that would be ridiculous, to have the devolution brought into effect? Mr Robinson: If we were back at that stage of the 28 July letter then we would be in the business of trying to resolve the other modality issues. Those would be issues in terms of the accountability of the Justice Minister, financial issues, all of those other issues. It is very difficult to put a timeframe as to how long it might take to do that. Committees, and committees will be taking the bulk of the work in this area of activity, normally set their own work plans and set out what they will be doing at various meetings or in the period in front of them. The committees would be the people that would set that timeframe and certainly we would not intervene in terms of trying to dictate to them. There are set periods of time that it requires for legislation to go through, both at Westminster and here in the Assembly, and then there is the issue of ensuring that we have the confidence of the community, so there is a consultation process required as well. I suppose the answer to your question is as expeditiously as is possible and as soon as is practicable. Q16 Christopher Fraser: Two of the points I was going to make have just been put but, that aside, you made a point earlier about the economy here and people's opinion about where it is going and what is happening. We have been told on at least one occasion that business confidence and inward investment would be improved if the devolution of policing came to the Province. Is that really what businesses are thinking here given the economic downturn and the concerns they truly have? Mr Robinson: I do not think that business is saying that policing and justice being devolved would make all the difference in the decisions that we have to take. I think what they are saying is that policing and justice is one of the issues that is at the heart of the difference between the parties in Northern Ireland and the resolution of that and a stable political environment helps us in terms of encouraging business to come to Northern Ireland. We all put ourselves forward when we had the Northern Ireland-United States Investment Conference in indicating how well we were moving forward and then we came out of the other side of that and one of the parties said, "Well, you might be moving forward but you are not going to be moving forward in the Executive because we are not going to call it". It undermines all of the work that we did during the period of the Investment Conference. It is political stability that is needed to encourage business, not any particular aspect of political decisions. Q17 Christopher Fraser: Is that particular point you make about stability understood by all the parties involved in this at the moment? Mr Robinson: I do not think that anybody
could miss that point, it is self-evident.
We all recognise that one of the selling points that we had during our
Investment Conference, and indeed which the Deputy First Minister and I, and
indeed my predecessor, Dr Paisley, when we were going outside of Northern
Ireland to encourage business, was to say, "We have got a community that has
been held back for a very significant period of time because of division and
conflict, we are through that, we have now got political stability, come to
Northern Ireland". We were selling it as
an attribute for Q18 Lady Hermon: First Minister, could I just have clarification on one small issue. There is considerable speculation that we will not see the devolution of policing and justice before the European Parliament election next June or the DUP not agreeing to the devolution of policing and justice. Could I ask you as both the leader of the DUP and as First Minister, is that an accurate assessment? Mr Robinson: The juxtaposition of that or any other election is unimportant in terms of the issues that have to be resolved. Q19 Lady Hermon: Unimportant? Mr Robinson: Unimportant, yes. The issue for us is one of community confidence. I have said often if the structures have been agreed between us, if we have assessed that the community confidence is there, devolution of policing and justice would take place just as soon as the legislation could go through to allow it to happen, but we are undermining the confidence in our ability to deal with policing and justice by not having an Executive which is operating and giving the appearance of dysfunctionality. Q20 Chairman: First Minister, I wonder if we could move towards the subject of our current inquiry, which is cross-border co-operation. Could you perhaps set the scene for us by telling us what your relations are like with the Government of the Republic? Mr Robinson: I have publicly indicated,
Sir Patrick, that I do not believe that we have had better relationships with
the Q21 Chairman: Has the economic downturn in the Republic had any effect? Mr Robinson: Yes, although not entirely a negative one. If you live in Newry or own a shop in Newry you would probably be benefiting. It is swings and roundabouts. There were times when I was on this Committee, Sir Patrick, that we produced reports because of the difficulty in the fuel cost differential, and aggregates was another area where there was a differential, and now things are helping the Northern Ireland economy probably more because of the pound but also because of some of the decisions taken in the Budget in terms of the revenues in the south. Q22 Chairman: One of the things that we have already looked at and will be following up tomorrow as well is the co-operation between the PSNI and Garda Siochana. How do you view this? Mr Robinson: I am inclined to duck the question by saying we do not have responsibility for policing and justice. Q23 Chairman: No, you do not. Mr Robinson: But I suspect you would not let me get away as easily as that! Q24 Chairman: Not really, no. Mr Robinson: There are many areas where it just makes good commonsense to have co-operation between the police forces on both sides of the border. There is a good relationship. I am sure that there are practical things that could be done to improve that relationship, but we have seen the benefit in some instances where joint raids took place on certain premises on the border to ensure that somebody did not move from one area to another. There is practical co-operation in terms of following up cases, and you have indicated that you are meeting with the Quinn family, for instance, and that is one area where the two sets of police officers have been co-operating. Q25 Chairman: Indeed. Whilst, of course, accepting the caveat at the beginning of your last answer, because we, of course, have that responsibility at the moment and are answerable to Westminster Parliament we will be looking into areas of cross-border co-operation. In your opinion, are there areas where this could be strengthened and improved, or are there any areas where the co-operation is sadly lacking? Mr Robinson: At the Chief Constable/Garda Commissioner level there is a high level of agreement as to how things should move in terms of co-operation, and that is probably shared at the higher ranks of both police forces. However, it does not always play out down at the grassroots level and I continue to get some reports where it is not as it should be. It is a case of ensuring that the agreements that are reached and the co-operation that does exist at the higher level is seen on the ground floor. In many instances it is, and I do not want to cast aspersions at the street level where it is not due, but there are instances where very clearly it is not working uniformly across the Province. Q26 Lady Hermon: First Minister, might I just ask whether you think SOCA, the Serious Organised Crime Agency, has been successful in Northern Ireland since it merged with the Criminal Assets Recovery Agency, which did a tremendous job and did it very publicly and we were able to read about its successes? Are you concerned about the lack of publicity around the activities of SOCA in Northern Ireland? Mr Robinson: I was concerned when the
proposal was first announced. I
indicated to the Secretary of State and to ministers that I was not happy with
that decision. We received assurances,
but I am not convinced that we are getting out of the new organisation what we
got out of the original organisation. I
think that they look at a different level of crime which in a small area like Q27 Lady Hermon: Is this something that you have raised with Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, at Westminster, or is this something that perhaps you would like to raise jointly with Unionist colleagues at Westminster? Mr Robinson: I would be delighted to work
with Unionist colleagues at Chairman: Quite right. Lady Hermon: I take that as an invitation to my colleagues. Q28 Dr McDonnell: I wonder if we could go back a little bit because you mentioned the economic downturn and I am pretty concerned about the disadvantaged in our society and whereas poverty and marginalisation are not contained in any one side of the divide that we have, they tend to be significantly worse on the Nationalist side. Does the Executive not meeting and agreeing and producing an economic package significantly affect the impoverished and marginalised elements of the Nationalist community out there? Mr Robinson: I think the Executive not meeting removes the platform where these issues would have been dealt with and, therefore, slows down the process of agreement. It does not mean that it is impossible to reach agreement through other methodologies but when you have cross-cutting issues it becomes all the more difficult to do so. Unquestionably, not just for the Nationalist community but for the whole community, I believe that the process of agreeing measures that would alleviate hardship has increased very substantially and I would want to see a set of circumstances where the Executive would meet, even if only to deal with that matter. I have indicated to you in the past that I am quite happy to have an agenda which is open in order to ensure that members of the Executive can bring whatever aspects of their concerns they wish, but let us have a meeting of the Executive to deal solely with the issue of the financial and economic package. I would be quite happy to invite the Executive to meet on that basis. Q29 Chairman: Have you made that specific request to the Deputy First Minister or are you doing so now? Mr Robinson: I indicated that I was happy to have an open agenda which would include that matter. I am now being even more generous, Sir Patrick, by --- Q30 Chairman: This is a specific invitation issued here and now --- Mr Robinson: You have heard it first, Sir Patrick, yes. Q31 Chairman: --- to the Deputy, who could have been here, and sadly is not, but doubtless it will be relayed to him. Mr Robinson: There is agreement in every political party that we are facing circumstances which are quite unique, they are unprecedented in financial terms, even if one looks back at previous recessions or depressions. What we are facing now is entirely different. Q32 Chairman: It is. Mr Robinson: Clearly the Northern Ireland Assembly cannot deal with issues which are of a global nature, but we can deal with some of the consequences and we are capable of putting together a package that would, at least at the margins, alleviate some of the pain. I am suggesting that even if we meet for nothing else, the Executive should meet for that purpose. Q33 Chairman: Let us hope that invitation is not only transmitted but is accepted. When you were making your comments earlier you said that you could envisage a package not dissimilar from those worked out in Scotland and Wales. Have you had close discussion with your counterparts, the First Ministers in Scotland and in Wales? Mr Robinson: Yes, because although some of
my ministerial colleagues will not sit down with us all here in Q34 Chairman: Do you keep in regular touch on a personal basis with the First Ministers in Scotland and Wales outside the BIC? Mr Robinson: Yes. We had a trilateral very recently and the finance ministers have trilaterals and sometimes quadrilaterals including Treasury involvement. That has been an expanding part of the institutions. There has been much more by way of east-west contact, not just, I suspect, because of, although very clearly because of, our interest in extending that because it was very much the poorer cousin. The north-south seemed to be getting all of the attention in previous administrations and we have been seeking to redress that balance and get the benefits of the networking that can go on on an east-west basis as well. The changes that took place in terms of the composition of the Scottish Government and Welsh Executive perhaps also added some impetus to it. Q35 Kate Hoey: First Minister, you talked earlier about the importance of confidence in the political process in terms of the business opportunities and so on. How concerned are you about what will inevitably be huge international publicity, certainly in the UK, to this coming Sunday's parades, particularly the role of the Parades Commission in what to most ordinary people would seem terribly bad commonsense to allow a parade to happen and then when one group changed the timing of their parade, as I understand it, the Parades Commission allowed the other group to change their parade time? I am thinking of representing my constituents in my area who are paying part of their taxes to pay for Members of Parliament who do not even take their seats in Westminster. How serious is this issue on Sunday? Do you feel that it is time we looked at the role of the Parades Commission? Mr Robinson: Just to touch on the latter part, we are looking at the role of the Parades Commission and, indeed, there is a parades review which is almost complete which deals very comprehensively with the Parades Commission issue. Q36 Kate Hoey: Who will make the final decision on that? Mr Robinson: It will be a responsibility
that the First and Deputy First Ministers have a role in, so it is going to be
a matter that we have to agree. Already
there is a wide degree of agreement between the Deputy First Minister and
myself in terms of the general direction that the parades review body is
suggesting. However, on the wider
question that you asked, I just think that people in Q37 Chairman: Have you discussed that with the Deputy First Minister? Mr Robinson: Yes, I have discussed it with
both the Deputy First Minister and the leader of Sinn Fein. I do not deny anybody the right to protest, I
do not deny anybody the right to demonstrate, but this is a half hour
Homecoming Parade, so there are 364 days, 231/2 other hours where they could have
a protest or a demonstration. Bringing
large numbers of people into the centre of Q38 Chairman: Did you manage to get anywhere in your discussions with your Deputy? Mr Robinson: I am not sure that the Deputy
First Minister has control over events in Q39 Chairman: It is good to have that on the record too. We are extremely grateful to you. We are finishing just a little before time, although because you have not altered your clocks in Belfast it appears to be 20 past four when it is, in fact, only twenty past three. Mr Robinson: Forward looking! Chairman: Let us hope that by the time
you have altered that clock and it clearly is |