Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
OFFICE OF
GOVERNMENT COMMERCE
& DEPARTMENT FOR
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD
AND RURAL
AFFAIRS
18 JUNE 2007
Q60 Mr Wright: If DEFRA is on track
to do a lot, and given that this has gone up the political agenda—the
Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are on board—why do
you not have the authority to say to your colleagues at Permanent-Secretary
level, "Look, this is what we have achieved. Why have you
not done the same?"
Helen Ghosh: But that is exactly
what we are doing through the Prime Minister's targets.
Q61 Mr Wright: But you are not.
Helen Ghosh: Yes we are. I am
sorry, but going forward, the targets for sustainable operations
in Government are being monitored by the SDC. I can assure you
that this time next year there will be a Report that will name
and shame Departments. It is being overseen by a Ministerial Committee
chaired by David Miliband who is nagging me at every weekly business
meeting that we have. He says, "How are we getting on with
one-planet DEFRA?" He is extremely conscious of that, as
are his ministerial colleagues. That is a much more powerful way
in which to get Departments to achieve the Prime Minister's targets
than my having direct intervention and saying, "Change your
water system! Change your energy system!" But then we are
providing Departments effectively with an undeniable opportunity
to buy into the most sustainably defensible options through common
contracts.
Peter Fanning: Through common
contracts. But before I mention that I should point out that it
takes two to three years to procure a construction or facilities
management contract. Typically, it takes four to five years to
deliver the whole cycle because normally you are moving people
around and, therefore, this work, done originally in 2005-06,
included projects initiated four years earlier and those that
were started, but will not come to fruition for four years. At
the moment, whatever we do, we are taking a snapshot. The key
thing to do is to ensure that we have comprehensive information
so that we can account back to you and demonstrate a trend. This
demonstrates that there are successes and failures, which is a
good baseline from which to develop that trend.
Q62 Mr Dunne: Mrs Ghosh, I refer
you to paragraph 1.9 on page 10. Do you accept that the Government
set a target for the Government office estate to be carbon neutral
by 2012?
Helen Ghosh: I do.
Q63 Mr Dunne: Who is responsible
for delivering on that commitment?
Helen Ghosh: Individual Permanent
Secretaries are responsible for achieving that within their estates.
They are overseen by the SDC as the watchdog, Ministerial Committees
and Gus O'Donnell as the leader of the group of Permanent Secretaries.
Q64 Mr Dunne: Does that mean that
ultimately Gus O'Donnell is responsible for delivering on the
target?
Helen Ghosh: Yes. I am happy to
say that that outcome is not in my performance target. Every individual
Permanent Secretary has it as one of their targets.
Q65 Mr Dunne: Who is responsible
for measuring progress towards achieving that target?
Helen Ghosh: That will be done
partly through Peter's systems and the property—I cannot
remember what it is called.
Peter Fanning: The property benchmarking
system.
Helen Ghosh: Yes. We will try
to get accurate data. You are quite right—it was a very
good point. Getting accurate data is tricky. Peter will say more
about that. The SDC will say whether we have done it or not. However,
there will be an interesting mixture of energy efficiency and
offsetting.
Q66 Mr Dunne: What progress has been
made towards achieving that target so far?
Helen Ghosh: I cannot tot that
up mentally sitting in front of you, but the carbon reductions
or increases have been set out in the SDC Report. Clearly, the
first measure against that target, which was set for us last year
only, will be in the SDC Report next year. That will be our first
serious statistical crack at that. But you are getting information
alongside that, Peter.
Peter Fanning: We are getting
information. We are working with the SDC to be the common source
of information to the SDC to hold the Government to account.
Q67 Mr Dunne: Mr Fanning, I think
that you just told us that in many cases it takes four to five
years to be able to turn round some buildings of this type.
Peter Fanning: Yes.
Q68 Mr Dunne: Given that you have
only five years left in which to achieve carbon neutrality, you
have no hope of doing so, have you?
Helen Ghosh: Carbon neutrality
does not mean zero carbon. Sorry—the terminology in the
area is tricky. It does not mean that there will be zero carbon
emissions; it means that there will be carbon neutrality as a
mixture of carbon emissions and carbon offsetting to the standards
that we shall set after our current consultation. We shall aim
to reduce our energy use as far as possible, and to reduce carbon
emissions more generally, but we cannot set bounds.
Q69 Mr Dunne: Are you saying that
if you cannot achieve it within the buildings, you will pay for
it by buying carbon offset?
Helen Ghosh: Absolutely. That
is what carbon neutrality means. It is what it means for us and
for M&S.
Q70 Mr Dunne: Right. What is the
current cost of carbon offset across Government?
Helen Ghosh: I can send the Committee
a note on that. The most prominent official system of carbon offset—possibly
the only current one—is the carbon system for flights, of
which all Departments are members. I shall send you the cost of
that.[3]
Q71 Mr Dunne: I would appreciate
that. Is there a budget for carbon offsetting across Government?
Helen Ghosh: There is an agreed
budget.
Q72 Mr Dunne: Could you provide details
of it, rather than going into it now?
Helen Ghosh: Yes. There are agreed
contributions, and there is a table that shows the contributions
of each Department to my Department; that is effectively how it
works.
Q73 Mr Dunne: Thank you. Is there
also a budget for energy efficiency measures across Government
that shows the amount of money to be set aside by Government in
promoting energy efficiency in Government buildings?
Helen Ghosh: There are schemes
in the wider public sector, of which Salix is an example.
Q74 Mr Dunne: We are talking specifically
about the Government office estate.
Helen Ghosh: I am not aware of
any specific fund for that.
Q75 Mr Dunne: If there is no budget
and if there is limited funding to purchase carbon offset at present,
how can you assess whether you have any prospect of achieving
carbon neutrality by 2012?
Helen Ghosh: Carbon neutrality
by 2012 was explicitly set by Ministers as a challenging but achievable
target that was very much in line with similar targets in the
private sector.
Q76 Mr Dunne: But are they asking
you to achieve that with no funding?
Helen Ghosh: Apart from the pretty
substantial funding streams that already go into management of
our estates.
Q77 Mr Dunne: Indeed, but we have
already heard that £3 billion is going into that for refurbishment.
Helen Ghosh: Yes.
Peter Fanning: Yes.
Q78 Mr Dunne: Mr Fanning, you just
told us that that money will take four to five years to feed through
to individual projects.
Peter Fanning: It could do, yes.
Q79 Mr Dunne: I do not know the size
of the total Government estate. Did you mention 9,000 buildings?
Peter Fanning: It is about 9,000
holdings.
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