Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
DEFRA AND RURAL
PAYMENTS AGENCY
23 JANUARY 2008
Q80 Angela Browning: And ensure the
system specifications retain their flexibility?
Mr Cooper: Yes.
Q81 Angela Browning: That sounds
very encouraging. Will all that be in place by April 2008?
Mr Cooper: No.
Q82 Angela Browning: So when I asked
about your commitment, is it that what the National Audit Office
has picked up as recommendations, which you clearly agree with,
are things you had not focused on as part of that commitment by
2008 until the National Audit Office helped you out with this
very helpful page?
Mr Cooper: There is a combination.
If I take the one about off-line databases. When I arrived, I
think there were something of the order of 90 systems that were
off the main IT system. We have moved some of that work onto the
IT system and we will reduce that down. We now have about 13 and
we have a plan where some of those will move—we have already
moved some of them and some we do not need now—so I agree
with it, but it cannot all happen in a very short space of time.
Q83 Angela Browning: If you were
to come back this time next year those recommendations with which
you have agreed would most likely be implemented?
Mr Cooper: Many of them would
be progressed if not implemented.
Mrs Ghosh: The table on pages
24 and 25 of the Report is quite a useful summary of when the
key changes will come through.
Q84 Angela Browning: Right, so you
think you are going to meet that timetable?
Mr Cooper: I would expect to.
Q85 Angela Browning: Hope to, will
do?
Mrs Ghosh: Expect to.
Q86 Angela Browning: Is this a commitment
or is this an aspiration?
Mr Cooper: There are some unknowns
in here. I am always cautious until we do the detailed work. We
do not know what is going to come out of the changes from the
CAP health check. There may be some significant changes which
could put us slightly off-track on some of these changes that
we are making.
Q87 Angela Browning: Let us move
quickly to page 17. I think Mr Dunne asked you about this question
of the Hunter review and the £750 average cost to process
and you indicated that you hoped to drive that down. You have
got a target for reducing the staff to 3,500 by 2010. What actually
is your target in terms of the processing costs per application?
Mr Cooper: I do not have one.
What we need to do is look at some benchmarking and arrive at
a view. I could say that there should be a year-on-year reduction.
One of the issues I face is that if the level of subsidy starts
to fall or the number of customers starts to fall, then I may
need fewer staff, but my overhead costs might continue to be high.
I need to look at that and form a judgment on whether that would
be a good measure or whether it should be a measure of a sum of
money for every pound that we pay out on subsidy. There could
be different measures which we would want to look at.
Q88 Angela Browning: You do not think
it would be better to focus on a figure as a target in order for
people to try and meet that target? It is very comfortable of
you to say we hope it will be year-on-year reductions, but if
you had actually gone into the detail of it and set a realistic
target, it would be something that people would have some idea
as to whether they were getting close to it or not. Would that
not help drive down your costs?
Mr Cooper: It would potentially.
One of the difficulties I have had is that there is a limited
amount of understanding of what the Single Payment Scheme is and
how it is administered and the consequences. You might expect
us to know very clearly what our capacity is and what the end-to-end
process is, but it has taken a long time to get to grips with
that. We do not have a wealth of experience, for example, on productivity.
How do you drive productivity? How do you arrive at it? I will
set targets.
Q89 Angela Browning: I am sorry to
be rude and interrupt you but my time is really up and I still
have a last thing, and it concerns the fact that £1.45 million
has been spent on overtime in order to get to where you are now
from existing staff working in other sectors than just Single
Farm Payment. Have you made any analysis of the impact departmentally
on what it has meant to those other processes to take staff on
that scale away from the work that they are doing?
Mrs Ghosh: In terms of achieving
your other targets, I believe that it has had little or no impact.
Mr Cooper: All of the other services
that we provide have been maintained at the level at which they
were previously administered.
Mr Curry: It is obviously overmanned!
Q90 Mr Bacon: Mr Cooper, it says
that you were Group Programme Director for the NHS Connecting
for Health and also involved in the Pension Credit with DWP. From
when until when were you in NHS Connecting for Health?
Mr Cooper: I was there for two
years immediately prior to joining the RPA.
Q91 Mr Bacon: So from May 2004 until
you joined the Agency?
Mr Cooper: That is right.
Q92 Mr Bacon: You got out, well done!
As did Accenture, interestingly, they got out of the NHS IT as
well but they are still the main consultant on this, is that right?
Mr Cooper: They are, that is right.
Q93 Mr Bacon: When it says on page
20 at paragraph 4.6 that: "The cost for the implementation
of the recovery plan is estimated to be £40 million between
2007-08 and 2009-10", that is £40 million to Accenture,
is it, or some of it is to Accenture? How much of it is to Accenture?
Mr Cooper: Some of it is to Accenture,
so we—
Q94 Mr Bacon: How much?
Mr Cooper: In terms of total IT
development activity we have now spent £79 million with them
in total.
Q95 Mr Bacon: £79 million.
Mr Cooper: Since the contract
was let in 2003.
Q96 Mr Bacon: £79 million since
it started. How much more do you expect to spend with them up
to and including this figure in paragraph 4.6?
Mr Cooper: I would need to give
you a note on that.[9]
Q97 Mr Bacon: You do not know how much
you are spending with your main IT contractor.
Mr Cooper: I do.
Q98 Mr Bacon: Or how much you are
planning to spend.
Mr Cooper: Over the period of
contract on IT development, in terms of contract we expect to
spend about £120 million by 2010-11.
Q99 Mr Bacon: That is another £41
million on top of the £79 here.
Mr Cooper: Which will include
some of that £40 million.
9 Ev 17 Back
| 
