Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
DEPARTMENT FOR
INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES
AND SKILLS
& HIGHER EDUCATION
FUNDING COUNCIL
FOR ENGLAND
29 OCTOBER 2007
Q100 Mr Dunne: In addition, there
is the Equality Challenge Unit and Action on Access, which is
separate from the Office for Fair Access.
Professor Eastwood: It is separate
from the Office for Fair Access.
Q101 Mr Dunne: You also have some
advisory units, advising the board.
Professor Eastwood: By advisory
units, do you mean—
Q102 Mr Dunne: I mean the widening
participation advisory committee and the quality learning and
teaching advisory committee.
Professor Eastwood: Yes, we have
five sub-committees of our main board taking responsibility in
particular areas, that is correct.
Q103 Mr Dunne: Reading the Report,
it comes across that there is a multiplicity of advisory units
and boards trying to help you achieve increasing participation,
and the other responsibilities that you have. At least as far
as participation is concerned, they have not done a very good
job, have they?
Professor Eastwood: I still want
to say that the performance of the sector in terms of progression
and completion in international terms is very strong. When I attend
international conferences and meet my opposite numbers, and people
with responsibility for other systems, they are struck by the
success that we have had, and a number of the cross-sector bodies
that we have established are now being mimicked elsewhere. I think
that the approach that we have taken, in so far as emulation might
be an indication of esteem, is esteemed in other parts of the
world.
Q104 Mr Dunne: The Government target,
as we have seen set out on page 7, paragraph 4, is to get 50%
of the eligible age into higher education, and that has increased
from 39%. in 1999-2000, to 43%. in 2005-06. Can you comment on
what prospect you think there is of increasing towards the Government
target, and what specifically you are intending to do to achieve
that target?
Professor Eastwood: Ms Thompson
may want to comment on the target. The current target is to continue
to make progress towards 50%. I believe that as a result of the
comprehensive spending review announcement, we will be able to
continue to do that. Our ability to continue to increase participation
in higher education is a consequence of the Government's decision
and willingness to invest in additional student numbers, because
the demographic cohort is continuing to increase. I am confident
that we will be able to continue to make progress towards 50%,
that there is unmet demand in the higher education system, and
that we will be able to continue to broaden and deepen participation
while sustaining the kinds of progression and completion rates
that the Report draws attention to.
Ruth Thompson: Would it be helpful—
Mr Dunne: That is fine; I have limited
time. In that case—
Chairman: Professor, you can let Ruth
Thompson come in a bit more? She has had quite an easy afternoon,
and I am sure that she would like to answer some more questions
as the representative of the responsible Department.
Q105 Mr Dunne: Before Ms Thompson
comes in on a question, I have one specifically for Professor
Eastwood. If you look at page 44, table 3 shows that maths and
computer science enrolments have fallen by 25% over the four-year
period, and yet the retention rate for that subject is top. What
do you, as the funding council, actually do when you are confronted
by such dramatic reductions in one of the best-performing subject
areas?
Professor Eastwood: Specifically
in mathematics, we have established a scheme in partnership with
the mathematical societies in order to promote mathematics in
schools, and to encourage progression from school mathematics
into university mathematics.
Q106 Mr Dunne: But in funding terms,
what do you do? Are you putting more money into it, or does less
money go into maths because it follows the undergraduate?
Professor Eastwood: In terms of
mathematics, we have put something of the order of £3.5 million
into the initiative to increase participation in mathematics.
Q107 Mr Dunne: How much maths funding
will fall across the university spectrum, with the decline in
numbers?
Professor Eastwood: That would
depend on the way in which a university would re-allocate its
places—
Q108 Mr Dunne: But would not it be
substantially more than the £3.5 million for a specific initiative?
Professor Eastwood: If you look
at mathematics, as distinct from computer science, the position
is that there is not now a fall in mathematics enrolments. In
fact, they were up 11% last year.
Q109 Mr Dunne: Can we concentrate
on where it has fallen and on what the council and the Department—perhaps
Ms Thompson will come in on this—is doing to arrest the
significant and dramatic decline in such an important subject?
Ruth Thompson: Would you like
me to discuss the generality of the initiatives and efforts being
made by the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills
and by the Department for Children, Schools and Families to raise
demand for higher education in stem subjects? That might be helpful.
Q110 Mr Dunne: Yes, but I would like
you to focus on the financial aspects, because we are here to
talk about public value for money, rather than the initiatives.
Ruth Thompson: Quite so. It would
be useful to explain that a range of initiatives are being taken
in the school and college sector—the pre-higher education
sector—which are the responsibility of the Department for
Children, Schools and Families, and which are designed to improve
the teaching of science, technology, engineering and mathematics
subjects. For example, the Teacher Development Agency works to
improve the standards of teaching in secondary schools and colleges,
so that specialist teachers in those subjects are available more
widely. The budgets for those are not the responsibility of my
ministry, but are Government funds going into, for example, continuous
professional development and the preparation of initial teacher
training in order to improve teaching standards.
Q111 Mr Dunne: Can you quantify those
sums?
Ruth Thompson: I could send you
a note.
Q112 Mr Dunne: Thank you. Returning
to the subject of the NAO Report, page 5, table 3 refers to year
1 drop-out rates. If I have read the Report correct—perhaps
the NAO could comment on this—in year 1 there was an overall
drop-out rate of 8.4%, but the Report suggests a 13.5% further
drop-out rate in years 2 and 3 for those who do not complete the
course. Is that the correct interpretation?
Ruth Thompson: Yes, but that is
the predicted completion rate.
Q113 Mr Dunne: So, actually, the
drop-outs would take place largely in year 2. Is that a fair assumption,
or are they spread across years 2 and 3?
Professor Eastwood: What you are
broadly seeing is a fairly flat line between years 1 and 2.
Q114 Mr Dunne: Sorry, are you suggesting
a straight line?
Professor Eastwood: That is what
the data suggest, more or less, and I think that that is what
you were implying.
Q115 Mr Dunne: So all the focus of
the Report has been on year one drop-outs, but if the drop-out
rates for years 2 and 3 are as bad, which you have just confirmed,
what is the funding council doing to try and arrest the continuing
poor drop-out rates?
Professor Eastwood: The necessary
interventions are not necessarily specific to the stage of the
programme. Those interventions, which would relate to student
support, appropriate counselling, face-to-face teaching and the
learning environment, are as important in year 2 as they are in
year 1. There are particular issues in year 1 concerning the transition
between a student's experience prior to higher education and their
experiences in higher education, which is why there is a legitimate
focus on year 1. In the main, a student who is well-grounded and
well-launched in year 1 is likely to proceed through that programme
successfully, so there is good reason for focusing on year 1.
Q116 Mr Dunne: But the drop-out rates
are just as bad in years 2 and 3.
Professor Eastwood: As I said,
the sort of generic interventions that we are talking about will
impact across the board.
Q117 Mr Dunne: I put it to you that
you do not know the answers to these questions. The Report focused
very much on year 1. That might be appropriate, but your answers
do not suggest that there is much focus within your group, or
within the Department, on continuing drop-out rates in second
and subsequent years.
Professor Eastwood: I am seeking
to make the point that there are particular issues in year 1 relating
to the transition to higher education, but that then a range of
issues applies throughout the student's programme. As we make
successful interventions, they will work across the piece.[6]
Q118 Mr Dunne: Finally, what happens
if you see a particularly stark increase in drop-out rates in
an individual institution? What does your council do? Does it
have the power to direct the University to change its approach
either to a subject or throughout the University?
Professor Eastwood: We would immediately
work with that institution through our regional consultant—the
person leading on the relationship between us and that institution—as
happens now.
Q119 Mr Dunne: So you would appoint
consultants to have a look at it.
Professor Eastwood: No, our regional
consultants are our own people. They are not consultants; they
are the people who lead our regional teams. We would seek swiftly
to identify what the issues are and whether the institution—
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