Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
MINISTRY OF
DEFENCE
18 FEBRUARY 2008
Q60 Mr Dunne: What records do you
keep of individual service personnel after they have left active
service or left service on your books if you like, in order to
determine whether or not stress induced mental health conditions
may materialise after they have left the service?
Mr Baker: Their full service medical
record is retained and is available for consultation.
Q61 Mr Dunne: Indeed, but in this
current climate of more active engagement than we have been used
to for some years many of these conditions do not appear while
people are still in service. They appear many years later. Do
you maintain any kind of records of service personnel to be able
to identify how prevalent such conditions are?
Mr Baker: We certainly have records
showing those who have encountered mental health problems during
service.
Q62 Mr Dunne: That is not the question
I am asking; it is after service.
Sir Bill Jeffrey: What you are
asking about is those who leave with no indication at that time
that they are suffering from mental health problems. The realism
of keeping in touch with that whole population is I think questionable.
The way we have chosen to tackle it is in the ways that we were
describing earlier, through enhanced support for those in the
community—GPs in particular—who are likely to be coming
across these cases and enhanced opportunities for people who do
feel concerned that their mental health may have deteriorated
since they left to bring themselves to notice and to receive the
best specialist support. It is more by exception than in the blanket
way that your question would imply.
Q63 Mr Dunne: One would hope this
is a small proportion of your leavers but I think it refers to
2% of those who are homeless having suffered psychiatric treatment.
These are the cases which are most vulnerable, where people need
the most help, to pick up the Chairman's opening questions. Is
help available if somebody presents who has been an active service
member and the condition presents some years after? They can still
have access at the MoD's expense to appropriate medical treatment?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: There is in
particular a medical assessment programme now going on at St Thomas's
in London which offers all veterans with operational service since
1980 a mental health assessment by a military psychiatrist who
can then make treatment recommendations and provide advice and
support for the civilian NHS and other care providers. The facility
is there. This has been, I would admit, a somewhat neglected area
in the past. It is something that we are still building upon.
Q64 Mr Dunne: Could I ask you to
consider how you would canvass the population of veterans to see
whether there is a wider problem out there than you currently
appreciate? Is that something which is feasible within your ability
to maintain contact with veterans?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: We can certainly
consider that.
Q65 Chairman: Air Commodore, in that
period between April and August will you be doing a plumbing and
building course at Aldershot?
Air Commodore Miles: I am ashamed
to say I have rather neglected my own resettlement so far.
Q66 Mr Davidson: Would I be right
to think that because we have had such a low response, only 13%
responding and I think only 10% of soldiers, the figure of 6%
unemployment that we are quoted here in the Report is likely to
be a gross underestimate?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: I would not
say gross, but for the reason that was implicit in Mr Hill's questions
those who chose to respond to this survey probably are more settled
people.
Q67 Mr Davidson: The unemployment
level amongst ex-service personnel is likely to be considerably
higher than the national average. 6% is higher than the unemployment
rate at the moment and if that is an under estimate then effectively
unemployment amongst ex-service personnel is considerably higher
than the national average.
Sir Bill Jeffrey: The Air Commodore
will correct me but the 6% is the Early Service Leavers.
Air Commodore Miles: I think there
are two issues here. For those who undertake a career transition
partnership programme, we are doing rather better than in the
NAO Report in terms of getting people out into employment at the
six month point. In the last six months for which we have data—
Q68 Mr Davidson: Page 15, chart six,
"The Employment Status of Service Leavers", 6% unemployed.
That, as I understood it, applied to all of them.
Air Commodore Miles: Yes, it does.
Q69 Mr Davidson: 6% is higher than
the national average. This has been accepted as being an under
estimate and therefore it is true that those who leave the services
are disproportionately unemployed.
Air Commodore Miles: I would not
say that you could construe that because I draw to your attention
the fact that for those who use the NAO programmes now 95% as
from the last six months of analysis are in employment within
six months. Amongst the Early Service Leavers, we did a—
Q70 Mr Davidson: You are not disputing
the Report?
Air Commodore Miles: I am not
disputing the Report.
Q71 Mr Davidson: You are saying that
the situation has changed since then?
Air Commodore Miles: I am saying
the situation, we believe, has moved on.
Q72 Mr Davidson: Maybe we can have
an update then on that, please. That would be helpful. In paragraph
2.19 it is being alleged that some external providers are setting
their charges according to the money available. Can we have a
list of those companies?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: We can consider
providing such a list.[4]
Q73 Mr Davidson: How do you mean "consider
providing"?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: I am never quite
certain at what point commercial confidentiality weighs in.[5]
Q74 Mr Davidson: It has been suggested
here that these people are basically robbing you blind. They are
setting their charges according to the amount of money that is
available and you are saying that you will not tell us.
Sir Bill Jeffrey: I am not saying
I will not tell you. I am saying I will consider telling you.
Q75 Mr Davidson: Is that a yes or
a no? Once you have gone from here that could just be a polite
way of saying no.
Sir Bill Jeffrey: It is not a
polite way of saying no. I know with this Committee that I should
not give cast iron commitments that I am not absolutely certain
I can fulfil.
Q76 Mr Davidson: Why would you not
be able to fulfil it?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: Because there
might be an issue of commercial confidentiality.
Mr Davidson: I am not asking for the
charges. I am just asking for their names. This seems to me to
smack of malpractice. If you are telling me that you are refusing
to tell us who is responsible for setting their charges according
to the amount of money available, then that is obviously a great
cause for concern. Chairman, maybe we could leave them to reflect
on that and come back to it after the hearing.
Chairman: In any event, it could be provided
to this Committee in confidential terms. The list will come, Mr
Davidson.
Q77 Mr Davidson: I was particularly
glad to hear from the Air Commodore that he was interested in
rewarding those who have given most which I presume from the way
in which this Report has been written means officers. It does
look very much as if this is geared to the needs of officers.
If we look at paragraph 2.22 for example, in the centre of that
there is a great deal about getting time off being dependent on
the commanding officer, variable treatment amongst the services
being dependent upon the relationship with their unit, their rank
and also the priority etc. "This may be one explanation of
why junior ranks were less satisfied with their resettlement."
Further on it says, "46 per cent of junior ranks rated the
resettlement support as very or fairly good compared to 67 per
cent of officers." Why are the officers much happier than
the other ranks? Is it because the system is geared to them?
Air Commodore Miles: I think that
would be an unfair construction to put on it.
Q78 Mr Davidson: What would be a
fair construction then?
Air Commodore Miles: The 47% does
of course include Early Service Leavers who we have acknowledged
do not receive the same level of resettlement benefits because
they have not served so long.
Q79 Mr Davidson: Some of them will
be officers may be.
Air Commodore Miles: Yes, some
of those will be officers.
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