Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
DEPARTMENT FOR
CHILDREN, SCHOOLS
AND FAMILIES
5 MARCH 2008
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome
to the Committee of Public Accounts where today we are looking
at, Preparing to deliver the 14-19 education reforms in England,
which is obviously a very important subject. We will be talking
about how the new partnerships will work to deliver these new
Diplomas. About 40% of young people still do not get A to C GCSEs,
which is obviously a very important issue, and I am sure you would
agree Mr Bell.
Mr Bell: I do indeed.
Q2 Chairman: Would you like to introduce
your colleague.
Mr Coles: I am Jon Coles, Director
of 14-19 Reform in the Department.
Q3 Chairman: Let us look at the choice
of learning routes for young people to start with, Mr Bell. It
is laid out very well in Figure 1 right at the beginning of the
Report: GCSEs, A levels, International Baccalaureate, Diplomas,
Level 1 Diplomas, BTECs and Apprenticeships. Is it not all rather
complex and adding to the confusion for young people and for employers?
Mr Bell: The short answer to that
is yes, it is very complex and confusing. When the Government
published the 2005 White Paper that led to these reforms there
was a recognition, as you suggested Chairman, that parents, students
and employers found it very confusing and we laid out there an
ambition to have four broad areas of qualification in the future:
the general qualifications (the A level/GCSE-type qualifications);
the Diplomas, of which more later; the Apprenticeships; and then
a Foundation Level for those students who may have learning difficulties.
Of course having that ambition is one thing but getting us to
that point where it is much more clear and coherent is another.
Clearly we have seen Diplomas as an important step along the way
because some of the qualifications that you have cited—BTECs,
NVQs and so on we would hope over time could be taken up in the
Diploma learning. However, there is quite a lot to do because
people have different views about the existing qualifications.
Ministers will be publishing a report on the rationalisation of
qualifications in the next couple of months, but I think it was
our ambition to use Diplomas as a very important way of simplifying
the structure.
Q4 Chairman: We can see this in the
example of 14-19 Partnerships which we can find in Figure 6. There
is a real risk, I am sure you would agree, of these Diplomas,
as you have admitted, not only adding to the complexity but raising
the risk that these authorities, local government and the rest
will not work together well enough.
Mr Bell: I think collaboration
is absolutely essential to this whole process. It is very unlikely
that any single institution, a school or college, would be able
to offer all the different Diploma lines, therefore it is very
important they work together because by 2013 there will be an
expectation that every institution is enabling every student/young
person to have access there. I might say more if you wish me to
at this stage about how we are pushing the collaboration but it
is an absolutely basic principle of this. I think the evidence
so far firstly in the Report but also nine or ten months on suggests
that we are getting those collaboration arrangements increasingly
well embedded.
Q5 Chairman: If we read further on
in the Report we see: "Effective partnership working takes
time to establish"—we know that—it is paragraph
47 onwards, and particularly 48 and 49. How are you going to avoid
the risk of some areas falling below the net and not being as
effective as others?
Mr Bell: The evidence is very
encouraging. We know for example that 82% of secondary schools
are already part of a consortium to deliver the Diplomas and all
but four local authority areas are involved in offering either
the first line of Diplomas or the second line of Diplomas. We
know increasingly that employers are heavily engaged in the programme
as are higher education institutions, so in terms of geographical
spread across the country, from the inner cities to the shire
counties, and in terms of institutions, schools and colleges as
I have said, and in terms of the wider network of higher education,
employers and so on, we have got them involved, so we think this
is a good example of bringing together everyone who has a stake
in it. I would make just one last point on that. I think one of
the criticisms historically of our qualification system has been
not just its complexity but the extent to which employers have
been able to influence the content of what is taught. I think
Diplomas are a very good example of how we have embedded employer
thinking from the very beginning.
Q6 Chairman: I am going to ask about
the reaction of employers and universities in a moment but I just
want to carry on with this point. We know that there is a skills
gap in certain areas, particularly in the North East and West
Midlands, and it says here in paragraph 49: " ... there is
a considerable risk that areas without earlier practical experience
of collaboration, which are also those that need to make most
progress, will be slow to get started." You are fairly confident,
are you?
Mr Bell: We are confident because
we have been doing work not just since the Report was published
but from the beginning to ensure that collaboration arrangements
are in place, and our network of regional advisers works with
those areas where there was some concern over collaboration. We
have been trying to ensure that areas that are particularly strong
in collaboration—for example the Wolverhampton area—are
able to share what they have been doing with others so they understand
how you build the collaboration. We are confident that the vast
majority of the phase one areas will be ready and up and running.
Q7 Chairman: How will you ensure
that young people in rural areas do not miss out on some of the
options?
Mr Bell: It is very important
that they do not and we have actually factored that in. One of
our first areas is Cumbria where we have had a chance to look
at how you make these arrangements work. For example, we have
put in an additional subsidy for transport arrangements and we
have looked at some of the curriculum consequences for youngsters,
particularly if you have got institutions that are far distant.
Again based on our experience of some of the original phase one
Diplomas and what they are doing, we do not see insurmountable
problems emerging, although I think it is fair to say that it
will be more complicated when youngsters have got a bit further
to travel and institutions are more widely dispersed.
Q8 Chairman: Before going on the
reactions of employers I must say a bit about cost. If you look
at paragraph 116, the paragraph that worries me, there appears
to be no robust estimates of the long-term cost of the reforms.
It says here: "Of particular concern was whether the new
funding will cover the administrative and logistical costs of
collaboration." This sounds to me a particular concern for
local authorities—another duty laid upon them and the costs
are not robustly set out.
Mr Bell: We are very clear about
the costs of the programme. We know we have spent about £590
million so far. We have built in over the CSR period £1.3
billion and we can break that down area by area. We actually did
make it very clear when consortia were putting their first bids
together—and it is the same for the second round—that
there has to be a strong value for money consideration underpinning
what areas do. You will always get places that will say, "We
could do with more money to do this or to do that," and it
would be surprising if we did not, but certainly if I look at
the evidence we have from the first 146 that are ready to go in
September, people are not coming back and saying the difficulties
they have are to do with the absence of funding or the lack of
funding. As I say, we can break down a bit more of the detail
on how the funding arrangements work if you wish us to do so.
Q9 Chairman: What we do not want
is more targets laid on local authorities and less individual
responsibility for local councils. One of my own local councils
said only this weekend that the Education Reform Team sent down
to London more consultants working for Grant Thornton, and, frankly,
local councils get fed up with it. They want to run their own
areas as much as possible. People like us say that they must fulfil
these targets, they must do this, and it is a problem. You have
not got the people on the ground anyway because you are primarily
a policy department, so would you rely on transparency rather
than just forcing local authorities into a particular route?
Mr Bell: I think one of the virtues
of the Diploma consortia is that we have enabled local authorities
and other partners to structure the way they do things largely
according to how best suits their circumstances (although certainly
against our national priorities). I do not get a lot of feedback
at all from local authorities that they feel somehow they have
been frogmarched into a particular kind of approach here. We are
very light-touch when it comes to support for this. We have 11
advisers working on 14-19 reform across the country. Nine of them
are in the Government Offices and of the two others one specialises
in rural affairs, so you are absolutely right, our approach to
this is quite light touch. Having said that, we make sure that
we do get good performance data and returns, so we make sure the
programme is to time.
Q10 Chairman: The attitude of higher
education institutions is important but the Report shows that
there is limited involvement so far. Read paragraph 39: "Most
higher education institutions have so far had limited involvement
in the reform programme." How can you make it stick if your
customer base has got limited involvement in its roll-out?
Mr Bell: I think it is important
to just make one or two points. Universities and higher education
has been absolutely central to the development of the Diplomas.
Q11 Chairman: If that is right why
does the survey find that higher education institutions are active
members of partnerships in less than a fifth of the consortia?
Mr Bell: It is important to distinguish
what we mean by universities and higher education. Universities
and higher education have been involved in every Diploma Development
Partnership and put together the content of the Diplomas, and
it is really important that that has been the case. When you talk
about universities you might also then say what about the vice
chancellors, how heavily have they been involved and engaged and
what is the involvement of higher education in particular areas?
We have not mandated the involvement of higher education institutions
in every consortium, although there are some very good examples
of where they are involved. In Sheffield, for example, they are
contributing to the Engineering Diploma and so on. The other thing
I would say about the timing of this Report is there were one
or two other things that I think higher education were waiting
to see, for example what is called the UCAS points tariff, in
other words the amount of points that would be given to a Diploma,
and that was not released until December. That has increased confidence.
We know the work that has been done on some of the detail, for
example the maths line to support the Engineering Diploma, has
also been important in bringing higher education more on. Although
the report of the 1994 Group of Vice-Chancellors got quite a bit
of publicity, actually they were broadly positive about where
we were. There is a lot more to do but I think we are actively
engaging universities as we go.
Q12 Chairman: The last people you
have invited to get involved are the employers. You mentioned
this earlier and in your answer to me you gave the impression
that they were involved but here we read in this Report paragraph
75: "Our survey and case studies found that employers and
independent training providers are less well represented. 45%
of delivery consortia have not yet involved employers ... "
and then we read, unbelievably, Mr Bell, in paragraph 37 that
at present, many employers have not heard about these Diplomas.
These Diplomas have been in the public domain for over two years
and it is crucial that employers have got to be involved in this
and some of them have not even heard of them.
Mr Bell: I think that is absolutely
the case, some of them have not, but lots of them have. We know
for example that 5,000 employers were involved in the Diploma
Development Partnership Programme which is putting together the
basic content of Diplomas. We have a very high profile and serious
national champion on the employers' side, Sir Alan Jones from
Toyota. It is also important to say that the Education Business
Partnership Network has been working very strongly through the
publication of this Report and beyond to engage employers in particular
local partnerships. You are absolutely right, we require them
to influence the shape of the Diploma programme, to support work
experience opportunities, and to ensure particularly that youngsters
understand what it is that will influence their thinking as an
employer in recruiting in the future. We know there is more to
do but actually we have made a lot of progress on this side. The
other thing I would say is do not forget we have huge numbers
of employers across the country that offer work experience places
for youngsters already in the system and we think we can build
on that and offer the work experience dimension both pre and post-16.
Q13 Chairman: My last question—and
this is only about one aspect of this—is we are going to
have to return to this in two or three years' time obviously,
so when do you think it is going to be working? When can we come
back and find out if it is working?
Mr Bell: We have got to have it
up and running for September this year because the first students
are going to be taught in their courses.
Q14 Chairman: Not in a patchy sense
but actually working.
Mr Bell: 2013 is the year when
all 14 lines will be available.
Q15 Chairman: We are not going to
have to wait that long, are we?
Mr Bell: To answer your question,
in terms of the full coverage across the country and the entitlement
of every young person, you will have to wait and we will have
wait until 2013. However, by starting the programmes now we know
that we are going to see the first fruits of this pretty soon
as these youngsters either go into employment or higher education
or further education.
Chairman: Thank you. Don Touhig?
Q16 Mr Touhig: Mr Bell, the Leitch
Review of Skills warned us that low participation and attainment
amongst young people threatens the long-term ability to possess
the skills in this country which will allow us to compete internationally.
I think the training and skills challenge is the single most important
obstacle we have got to overcome if we are to maintain our living
standards and grow our economy. Would you agree with that?
Mr Bell: Yes I do and I think
the Leitch Report set a very sobering backdrop not just for this
aspect of reform but also all dimensions of education in this
country. I think I would argue however that the 14-19 reforms,
not just Diplomas but the other things that are covered here,
are part of the response to that kind of challenge that you have
described because we want more young people to be highly skilled;
we want them to be involved in training and education that is
employer-related, so we are not just offering the Diplomas programme,
we have the very substantial expansion of Apprenticeships, and
we are also ensuring that in the mainline general courses at A
level youngsters have to do an extended project under these reforms,
so it gives them more of that. I think we are putting together
a whole number of reforms that are designed to address the Leitch
challenge.
Q17 Mr Touhig: I take the view that
we have to give young people the skills they yet do not have in
order to create the jobs we yet do not have and you would accept
that, I am sure?
Mr Bell: I do and it is quite
tough running and devising an education system for today when
you are trying to address tomorrow's challenges. I think what
we would say with the 14-19 reforms generally is they are trying
to anticipate what we need for the future. Taking the Leitch arguments,
it seems to me that if you have a qualifications and curriculum
reform that is based on more skills, then you have got as good
a chance as any of anticipating the needs of the future.
Q18 Mr Touhig: We seem to have common
ground.
Mr Bell: Yes we do.
Q19 Mr Touhig: Why therefore are
you planning to give young people skills that few employers want?
Mr Bell: I do not think we are
planning to do that.
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