Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
DEPARTMENT FOR
CHILDREN, SCHOOLS
AND FAMILIES
5 MARCH 2008
Q40 Keith Hill: So in a sense the
marking will have to be normalised?
Mr Coles: Yes and you are absolutely
right that the grading difficulty of this is quite great, but
we believe that all of those problems have been solved and addressed.
We have had the country's leading experts on assessment methodology
working on assessment of the Diplomas. Each of the modules will
be graded to quite a high level of specificity, so it will be
very finely graded which will mean that the aggregation of the
grades overall can be done with confidence.
Q41 Keith Hill: My understanding
is that this kind of assessment that you are describing is being
carried out by something called the Diploma Aggregation Service
(DAS).
Mr Coles: Yes exactly, so the
Aggregation Service will bring together the marks from individual
modules and units in a single grade.
Q42 Keith Hill: How is that work
going?
Mr Coles: That is developing well.
A project which is led by the QCA to develop this, called Minerva,
is bringing together the awarding bodies and the National Assessment
Agency to develop this piece of work which is on track to give
us what we need for this first round.
Q43 Keith Hill: How much is it costing?
Mr Coles: I will have to write
to you on the overall costs of that, I am sorry, I do not have
the number off the top of my head overall. [1]
Q44 Keith Hill: Could you let us know
what the initial estimates were and what the current estimates
are?
Mr Coles: Yes.
Q45 Keith Hill: Are you reasonably
confident that this kind of aggregation of the marking systems
is going to be ready for the autumn of this year?
Mr Coles: Yes I am confident that
the first year of Diplomas will have the service in place.
Q46 Keith Hill: Which is the organisation
which is carrying out this exercise for you?
Mr Coles: It is the Qualifications
and Curriculum Authority that is in the lead.
Q47 Keith Hill: Just one last question,
at any point in developing this concept of Diplomas, have you
had a look at making a comparison of the costs of putting a learner
through the Diploma as opposed to the other kind of qualification
schemes, whether it is GCSEs and A levels, BTEC, Apprenticeships
or even the International Baccalaureate?
Mr Coles: The costs of a Diploma
will be higher than a GCSE or A level route, reflecting the fact
that they are practical qualifications. They will be broadly equivalent
at Level 3 to similarly sized broad vocational qualifications
like the full sized BTEC National Diploma so the funding per year
will be very close to that.
Q48 Keith Hill: Do you think you
could let us have the comparisons?
Mr Coles: Yes.[2]
Mr Bell: Absolutely.
Q49 Chairman: I do not think you
understand, Mr Coles, because you are so involved in this, just
how complex your answers were. If I was a small employer I would
find this quite difficult. It says here in paragraph 77: "The
likely demands on employers arising from the Diplomas are expected
to be large". Listening to the answers you gave to Mr Hill
I think they might well be. This is a very complex area you are
talking about for small employers.
Mr Coles: We are trying to do
this so of course the wiring behind the scenes is very complex,
but we would not expect or need an employer to understand all
of that. That is why we want to end up with a single grade for
the Diploma so that an employer can see very clearly and simply
how well somebody has achieved.
Chairman: Thank you. Mr Mitchell?
Q50 Mr Mitchell: Since I was not
able to get into the queue of supplicants at Prime Minister's
question time today asking for universities and university colleges
in their constituencies, can I make it clear that I would like
Grimsby to be at the head of that queue. Having said that—and
I do not want to alienate you too much—this is a mess, is
it not? It is a vague aspiration. Let us take the confusion of
qualifications first. Table 1 gives a whole long list of qualifications
which, frankly, if I was a kid would baffle me and if I was a
local educationalist would baffle me. Why is it so long, why can
it not be amalgamated?
Mr Bell: I think I picked that
up, Mr Mitchell, in my answer to the Chairman at the beginning.
I do not think anyone would say it is other than very complicated
and confusing, and part of the reason—
Q51 Mr Mitchell: Should it not be
simplified before you push ahead?
Mr Bell: We laid out our ambition
to simplify it in the 2005 White Paper in the way in which I described
at the beginning. You cannot simplify it overnight because of
the range of qualifications that exist, the number of youngsters
that are involved, and the organisations that offer them. What
we are saying in this programme is that we want increasingly to
think about the Diploma as being able to subsume a number of the
qualifications that exist but we are going to be consulting widely
on that in a paper that is coming forward. I do not think anyone
would disagree with the need to make this clearer for youngsters
and their families as well as employers. I think the only thing
I would say is that schools and colleges as well as careers advisers
can help youngsters to navigate their way through what is complicated,
but we should not have it complicated in the first place, I agree.
Q52 Mr Mitchell: It is like a patchwork
quilt and really it is daft to push ahead with a comprehensive
thing like this which we all want to succeed without simplifying
it before you start.
Mr Bell: I would disagree that
it is daft to push forward because this is about the kind of reform
that many people, not least employers in this country, have said
that they require. We have a long history of a very sharp distinction
between so-called academic and vocational—
Q53 Mr Mitchell: That is true but
that is only two categories. Why can you not knock heads together
to simplify within those two categories?
Mr Bell: We believed and continue
to believe that having a new style of qualification, which as
I suggested in my answer to Mr Hill combines the best of both,
enables us to have a framework that will allow that simplification
you have touched on to happen. It is not straightforward because
of the multiplicity of qualifications that exist currently and
the very large number of bodies involved in providing these qualifications.
Q54 Mr Mitchell: Other countries
do not have such a complexity of qualifications.
Mr Bell: And in many ways that
is part of our problem, exactly, and that is why we are trying
in this reform programme to see as one of the end points greater
simplification. You are absolutely right, we have a particular
history to the way in which qualifications have been offered in
this country which has led to a high degree of stability on the
academic qualifications side—
Q55 Mr Mitchell: —People like
me.
Mr Bell: —But a very large
number of alternatives, often layered on layer, over the last
25 or 50 years, and we do recognise that and that is not the history
of other countries. What we are trying to do by the time we get
to 2013 is to see can we get greater consolidation so it is simpler
for a youngster or employer to understand qualifications.
Q56 Mr Mitchell: A qualification
like mine has greater esteem and it should not have because all
qualifications are valuable, but they need simplification. Let
me move on because it is clear from the Report that some areas
know what they are doing, some want more information and some
are right behind and not doing very much. It does not tell us
what areas these are. Can we have your list of who is ahead and
who is behind and what the problem areas are?
Mr Bell: We do a regular rating
of the first 146 areas that are ready to run in September. Our
most recent assessment said that 91% of those are in the green
or amber/green categories, in other words, they are well ready.
Q57 Mr Mitchell: Can we have the
names and the places, can we have a list?
Mr Bell: Sure.
Mr Coles: Just to reassure you,
there are now only two local authority areas which have not applied
as part of the either Gateway 1 or Gateway 2 to deliver Diplomas
in 2008-09 and they are the City of London and the Isles of Scilly.
We are doing specific work with the Isles of Scilly to support
them.
Q58 Mr Mitchell: Can you supply us
with a list of who is red and who is green and who is amber?[3]
Mr Bell: I would be nervous about
making that public, frankly.
Q59 Mr Mitchell: Why?
Mr Bell: Because I think we want
to work with these areas who are suffering some difficulty at
the moment. I would want to keep this in context. I did say 91%—
1 Ev 16 Back
2
Ev 16-17 Back
3
Ev 17-20 Back
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