Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
DEPARTMENT FOR
CULTURE, MEDIA
AND SPORT
AND UK SPORT
2 APRIL 2008
Q60 Mr Davidson: Nevertheless, it
is a very, very significant increase to get fourth in the medals
table, and comparing that ambition with the funding of sports
set out in table 7 could you give us some indication in broad,
numerical proportionate terms of what proportion both athletics
and swimming are to that 60 total because my sense is that those
are the two sports which have, I think, the largest number of
medals available and yet in the case of athletics, as Mr Bacon
was saying, the funding proposed has been significantly reduced.
So what proportion of the 60 is accounted for by those two sports
at the moment?
Ms Nicholl: I do not have that
figure with me here but certainly can provide that. It is true
to say that in the Olympic programme the number of medals available
in athletics is the most of any sport and so it is an important
sport in terms of our investment to support them in delivering
a significant number of medals in London 2012.[4]
Q61 Mr Dunne: In which case why are we
cutting the budget by nearly £2 million?
Ms Nicholl: The cut was about
an appropriate level of investment so at that stage the total
number of athletes that athletics was funding with our resources
was deemed to be too great and when sports are relatively under-performing
and not achieving their potential our approach has always been
to support them in supporting fewer athletes with better support
and really get the system of support right and create that world
class environment and then grow from there. So it was a conscious
decision to help athletics make those reductions in athletes to
really focus on quality support, so the reduction actually in
financial terms was not huge because of the potential the sport
must achieve in 2012.
Q62 Mr Dunne: Are we changing the
way that each individual sport is being administered? Is that
part of your remit that you are concerned that too much of this
is being absorbed by administration by the sport itself or is
that being bypassed, it is going direct to the athlete?
Mr Steele: No, it is a combination
really and what we are doing, which we were not doing before,
we are looking at a much broader range of factors around success
and medal success, whereas previously we had what was rather a
blunt instrument and was recognised as that at the last PAC of
just medal success. We are now looking at governance, we are now
looking at all the support which is necessary to put into a sport
and for a sport to develop to produce medals on a sustained basis,
and part of that is governance.
Q63 Mr Dunne: I note from table 7
that of the top six sports four are what I think Lord Coe would
refer to as sitting down sports—rowing, cycling, sailing—I
suppose is mostly done sitting down although people stand up at
some point—and canoeing is done sitting down, and the funding
for all those where sitting down takes place is up significantly.
Is that allocated purely on the basis of prospects for medal success?
Is that the primary criteria that you use in increasing the allocations
in those directions?
Mr Steele: The no compromise funding
strategy which I mentioned earlier is about two components: one
is medal success and current performance and the other is about
future potential, and the future potential looks at a range of
factors and that might be the development that the sport is looking
at, so young athletes; it might be the systems they have in place—there
is a range of things which we can then look at as a combination
of factors and say that this sport is likely to produce a performance
level in the future. That takes us away from what we talked about
earlier, the narrow margins that can be misleading if you just
look at medal success.
Q64 Mr Dunne: We have just had great
success in cycling at the world track championships in Manchester
where we won nine of the 18 medals available; is that on or better
than expected in terms of your targets for cycling?
Mr Steele: We won 11 of the medals
and nine golds at the world championships and, as you rightly
say, that sport is now ranked number one in the world and is a
huge success and very promising for Beijing. That actual event
was not the targeted event so in between Olympic Games we have
a major event each year which is used as the test event for that
sport and this year of course for cycling at an Olympic year would
be Beijing. Last year at the world championships we were also
ranked one and we were very successful there with 11 medals again
with seven golds. That was a test event that particular year so
this year it has not counted.
Chairman: I am afraid there is a division
in the House so we will have to go and we will come back as quickly
as possible.
The Committee suspended from 4 pm to 4.05
pm for a division in the House.
Q65 Mr Dunne: Thank you, Chairman. Moving
on to the next sport in which I have a particular interest, which
is target shooting, I note that funding for target shooting is
going down. This is not a sitting down but a lying down sport,
which of course is not allowed to take place in this country at
all. Could you give us some indication of where training takes
place for target shooting and would it not be better value for
money for the taxpayer for the government to reconsider the legality
of target shooting practice taking place in this country than
having to send our medal hopes abroad for their training?
Mr Steele: As far as where training
takes place.
Ms Nicholl: In Europe.
Q66 Mr Dunne: But not in the UK?
Ms Nicholl: They actually do spend
a lot of time overseas in Europe.
Q67 Mr Dunne: Are they allowed to
do any target shooting practice in the UK?
Ms Nicholl: I understand that
there may be some arrangements being made with the MoD but obviously
the legislation affects target pistol shooting and it affects
three Olympic disciplines but it does not affect all the disciplines.
Q68 Mr Dunne: Do you know what proportion
of the funding made available, which has declined I think by £100,000,
according to figure 9, what proportion is spent on travel?
Ms Nicholl: I could not tell you
the exact amount but we could give you an estimate if you would
like that.
Q69 Mr Dunne: Would it be possible
to send us a note about the impact of the overseas cost of the
three disciplines you mentioned if it goes beyond target shooting
as that would be helpful.[5]
The next sport in which I have a constituency interest is archery
where I am pleased to see funding is increasing because one of
our medal successes last time round was a constituent of mine,
Alison Williamson who won the bronze for Britain in archery. Is
this an area where we anticipate making medal gains, and could
you tell us how and when you will be defining the target for that?
Is that again a post-Beijing target?
Ms Nicholl: For 2012 all the targets
for all the sports will be set post-Beijing but certainly we do
hope to see performers' gains in archery. For example, in the
recent world championship the archers came back with three medals,
which is unprecedented in recent years. They have a new Chinese
coach, and a very good team effort now behind supporting the athletes
and so we are very optimistic about archery.
Q70 Mr Dunne: Are we improving archery
facilities in the UK?
Ms Nicholl: Archery facilities
generally, the national squad is training quite a lot at Lilleshaw
and I know that the Grand National Archery Society is in discussions
with Sport England about improving the facilities at Lilleshaw.
Q71 Mr Dunne: Diving is a sport that
is also getting an increased allocation according to chart 7,
despite the fact that facilities for diving have been reduced
around the country very dramatically. According to the Great Britain
Diving Federation there are now only six 10-metre high Olympic
standard diving boards left in the UK after, for example, 90%
of London's pools had their diving boards removed over the past
decades because of fears of health and safety. What is this programme
doing to help restore diving to the public?
Mr Steele: I will make clear that
facilities is not an area that we invest in; it is not an area
of responsibility for us, but of course it overlaps with our need
to ensure that elite sport can move forward and we work closely
with sport England to make sure that we illustrate to them any
potential obstacles to elite sport which are facilities-based.
In terms of diving, you will be aware that Tom Daley recently
was the youngest British male to ever qualify for an Olympics
and that is some achievement in itself.[6]
So there are individuals within diving which will reap the benefits
of our world class programme, so they will have personal support
and all the sports science and sports medicine necessary that
you wrap around an elite athlete. So those are happening. At the
same time our Mission 2012 Programme, which you will have seen
in the Report is the way that we monitor and assess what are the
big issues, what are the obstacles which could be blocking elite
performance is also making sure that we keep an eye on things
like facilities to ensure that athletes and sports are not being
disadvantaged. At the moment there are some very positive performances
coming out of diving.
Q72 Mr Dunne: Mr Stephens, a couple of
questions for you. In December the Minister announced that UK
Sport would be taking responsibility for doping through a new
National Anti-Doping Agency (NADO). Could you tell us how it will
do that and with what budget and will that budget come out of
UK Sport's existing budget or is it a separate DCMS budget?[7]
Mr Stephens: That was an agreement
reached with UK Sport so perhaps I can look to Mr Steele to answer
that.
Mr Steele: Yes the separation
of NADO, the first phase of that, is that we have been asked by
government to work up a business case for that and that is being
done at the moment to be presented to ministers at the end of
this month. I would stress that the reasons for separation are
to really progress the model. We have an extremely effective National
Anti-Doping Organisation at the moment but we need to look ahead
and see what is required in the future, so it will be a different
type of organisation in the future with closer links to law enforcement
agencies and trying to go upstream, if you like, to where are
the drugs in sport coming from and who is introducing them, as
opposed to just concentrating on testing and intelligence there.
So after that business case we would expect to have instructions
from government on which options they would like to look at in
the future.
Q73 Mr Dunne: Mr Stephens, do you
expect that this will have its own budget?
Mr Stephens: Yes.
Q74 Mr Dunne: Do you have any sense
of what that is likely to be? That will presumably be an increase
over the current provision and will have a much wider remit?
Mr Stephens: That has not bee
agreed yet. An element of UK Sport's existing budget is for the
existing anti-doping responsibilities and that will obviously
carry on with the new organisation. But we have not agreed the
budget for the new organisation yet.
Q75 Mr Dunne: When would you expect
to do so?
Mr Stephens: When we have considered
the business case.
Q76 Mr Dunne: So by the time we meet
again next year?
Mr Stephens: I am sure, yes.
Q77 Mr Dunne: In the context of genetic
advances the difficulty in determining what is a performance enhancing
drug and what is not are becoming more and more difficult to detect
so that in the future, for example with the use of stem cell it
may be possible to repair muscle tissue from injection of adult
stem cell from the athlete's own generation. Have you determined
whether or not that would be regarded as a performance enhancing
drug?
Mr Steele: I think what we are
looking at the moment is the fact that a new NADO has to have
a whole range of capacities and skills and research is certainly
one of those, or at least to be able to tap into cutting edge
research in exactly the sorts of areas you have just described,
and that would be part of any new NADO organisation's responsibilities.
Q78 Mr Dunne: Mr Stephens, has the
Department considered the impact of the Human Fertilisation Embryo
Transfer Bill shortly to come to the House on issues such as doping
in sport?
Mr Stephens: I am not conscious
of the Department considering that.[8]
Q79 Mr Dunne: Is that something that
you ought perhaps consider?
Mr Stephens: I am happy to do
so.
Mr Steele: Also I think the World
Anti-Doping Authority clearly is leading in terms of research
and cutting edge of what can and cannot be done in these technological
areas and clearly the NADO has a close relationship with them.
4 Note by witness: Athletics and Swimming are
estimated to account for 20% of the total medals needed in 2012.
These are medal estimates however and not related to firm targets
for 2012 for each sport (these will be finalised post-Beijing
for the 2009-13 investment period). The finalised figures will
be available early in 2009 and UK Sport will write to the Committee
with this information. Back
5
Note by witness: The three Olympic Pistol disciplines
affected by gun legislation are: rapid fire, 50m (men) and 25m
(women). It has been estimated by the Performance Director of
British Shooting that the cost of having to train overseas for
these disciplines will account for £135,000 of the £1.4
million podium funding available for Beijing 2008. Back
6
Note by witness: While Tom Daley is the youngest individual
male competitor to qualify, in fact the youngest ever was Kenneth
Lester, who went to the 1960 Olympics as a rowing cox. Back
7
Note by witness: The announcement in December 2007 was
in fact that a new National Anti-Doping Agency will be set up
separate from UK Sport, where it is currently situated. Back
8
Note by witness: We have consulted with colleagues at
the Department of Health who have have advised that there are
no implications for doping in sport that could be envisaged through
this Bill. Back
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