Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
HOME OFFICE
7 MAY 2008
Q80 Mr Touhig: So it is one of your
ongoing measurements.
Sir David Normington: Yes.
Q81 Mr Touhig: The report makes it
clear that the Licensing Act is not being used sufficiently well
in many parts of the country, and I certainly believe that is
the case in my own constituency; although, I note, except in Cardiff.
We see in Case Example 2 that, using the Act, the police managed
to change Bar Zulu from the city's most violent bar into one which,
even at the busiest times, has few problems. In former times,
on a Friday and a Saturday, policemen were permanently stationed
outside the bar between 7 p.m. and 2 a.m. In the last year or
so, incidents have dropped by 88%. That is a good practice that
ought to be—
Sir David Normington: A very good
practice.
Q82 Mr Touhig: So what are you doing
to try to do something about that?
Sir David Normington: We do have
our Good Practice Guide—this is one I made
earlier! It does exactly what you describe. It looks at how to
deal with problem premises; how to deal with disorder in public
spaces; and how to deal with individuals, i.e. drunken
people. It pulls out the best practice in all those areas. It
is backed up by a lot of effective practice that is online. This
is getting better. You cannot just pass a law and expect everybody
to know how to use it effectively. What the review we did on licensing
showed was that practice was really improving, and I hope that
this will give it another push.
Q83 Mr Touhig: You have been taking
lessons from Delia Smith, I can see. You made that one earlier!
But are you now making sure proactively that that goes out to
the partnerships, and are you measuring their responses?
Sir David Normington: Yes, we
are. We are doing that through our government offices, which of
course are closer to them. It is not all done from the Home Office;
it is done through the government offices, where we have specialists
on alcohol.
Q84 Mr Touhig: You said earlier that
you were reluctant to collect certain information, but this is
a sensible progression in order to advance your objectives.
Sir David Normington: This is
a very big drive; because, as I say, nearly half of violent crime
is alcohol-related.
Q85 Mr Touhig: The Chairman also
pointed out earlier that a number of recommendations that were
made in previous reports by this Committee have not been acted
upon. Do we have much hope that anything that might come out of
this hearing will be better received by the Home Office?
Sir David Normington: You have
my assurance it will be received. The previous report has been
acted on. What it shows is that it has not had the full effect
that we want yet, because the report talked about funding, about
analysis of data, about sharing of data and about best practice.
We have acted on all those things and actually implemented what
the Committee said. As you can see from what the surveys underlying
this report said, we do not have everybody up to the same standard
yet; but it is coming along. I think you can say that we should
have been a bit quicker, but we are really getting on with it
now.
Q86 Chairman: The key finding does
not support what you have just said. It said that partnerships
do not have the capability or capacity to analyse the root causes
of violent crime.
Sir David Normington: No, but
we have not talked about the analysis work. We are paying for
the training of analysts now, specifically to deal with that issue.
Q87 Geraldine Smith: Reading this
report somewhat cheered me up this week. It has not been an easy
week if you are a Labour MP in a marginal seat! It is very good
to read that violent crime has fallen by 9%, and I would hope
that is in all the national newspapers tomorrow. I think that
one of the problems is that the good news does not get reported.
People may say with other recorded crime, "Oh, well, it's
because people aren't bothering reporting it", but I think
that it is much harder to say that about violent crime. I think
that violent crime does get reported. There are other indicators,
of course. I find that I have less chance of being murdered than
in 1991; I also find that the older I get the safer I become—so
things are looking up.
Sir David Normington: May I cheer
you up even more? I have been waiting to say this. Violent crime
has fallen 31% in the last 10 years; serious violence is down
28%. That is not on police-recorded crime; that is on the British
Crime Survey, which is asking people about their own experience
of crime. I know nobody believes these figures: that is the trouble;
but it is the most reliable measure we have, because it asks about
people's own experience. It is 31% and 28%, and this is the biggest
sustained fall in crime that we have ever had.
Q88 Geraldine Smith: My question
would be why does nobody believe that? Even I found it hard to
believe. You look through and you think is it because the media
always portray these isolated cases?
Sir David Normington: I am reluctant
just to blame the media, because I think it is more complex than
that. There were some things that we were saying earlier about
the most serious crime, which understandably gets a very high
profile—murders, stabbings, shootings. They do create a
sense of insecurity in communities. Although they are very rare,
it is no use our saying that they are very rare when your community
has a little boy shot. That has a completely disproportionate
effect. I can say all I like about burglary or antisocial behaviour,
but those crimes have a disproportionate effect; which is why,
in a sense, we are talking about them and focusing on them, I
think.
Q89 Geraldine Smith: If crime is
falling and violent crime is falling, and it is quite clear that
is the case, why is that not the perception? Twenty years ago,
I think people felt that they were safer, but in effect they are
probably safer today.
Sir David Normington: If you ask
people, their fear of crime has also fallen; their fear of being
burgled has fallen. We know this from our own surveys. I think
that this does not translate into a national view. We know this
with all areas: that people always think the national picture
is much worse than what is happening in their own lives and locality.
Chairman: We have to break now.
The Committee suspended from 4.29 pm to
4.34 pm for a division in the House.
Q90 Geraldine Smith: One of the reasons
I think that crime, and in particular violent crime, has fallen
is the presence of more police and community support officers
on our streets. I think that, anywhere in public places where
there is a visual presence of someone in authority, it does help.
What are your comments on that?
Sir David Normington: I think
that you do have to start, as I was saying earlier, by making
sure that there are enough police, enough police staff in support
of them, and that they are on the streets more. That, of course,
has been where the Government has been driving the policy, very
clearly. We do have more police, as you know. It is 11% up over
10 years: just under 140,000 police. You have to start with that.
Investing real resource in policing is the starting point for
any of this, I think; but then working with the police and others
on what is best practice in policing violent crime is really important.
Some of these crimes are complex and in some areas they are not
very common. Some forces have a lot of expertise in dealing with
them; some do not. Partnering up forces that have better experience
with those that do not, and so on, is part of the job.
Q91 Geraldine Smith: Do you think
the Home Office are very good at sharing best practice? I can
think of at least two schemes in my area which I think are extremely
good: a stunt school for young people, which has attracted a lot
of interest, and crime fell dramatically when the police went
along with vouchers for people to be able to go in free, and so
on. Because it was an adventurous activity, it channelled their
energies in positive ways rather than negatively. Another scheme
is Wise-Up, where ex-offenders are being mentored by other ex-offenders
who do not go back to crime. I think that both of these schemes
could work very well in a number of places, but there seems no
way that that information is ever shared. Particularly with the
Wise-Up scheme, we have had ministers visit that scheme in the
past. I think that the Home Office really does have to do better
at sharing best practice.
Sir David Normington: The report
says that we are not good enough at it. Wherever I have been over
the last 20 years, this issue of how do you get best practice
spread in all services has been a key issue. I am disappointed
in the report, because we have put huge effort into this and we
continue to do so.
Q92 Geraldine Smith: What efforts?
What do you actually do?
Sir David Normington: We now have
a dedicated resource in the Home Office that is dedicated to doing
just what you say, which is in constant contact with our field
force in drawing out that practice and putting it—
Q93 Geraldine Smith: Can you ask
them to contact me?
Sir David Normington: I certainly
can. We have something that is called the "effective practice
database", which is all about the best practice being available
to everyone around the country. Some of what you are talking about,
though, is not in policing; it is in prevention. Some of the most
important practice is both in prevention and also in dealing with
re-offending. If we could get the best practice spread better
there, it would have a major impact on crime.
Q94 Geraldine Smith: I think that
I have two very good examples for you. Can I turn to one of the
case examples? It is on page 20 and it is the Birmingham Reducing
Gang Violence Project. I do not think that this is very good at
all. I think that this is not an effective use of public money.
A non-profit making company set up to mediate between gangs? What
are we coming to? I can understand mediation in domestic violence
but I certainly cannot understand mediating between violent gangs.
Surely that is not the solution? I cannot imagine these gangs
sitting down and having a cup of tea and a chat.
Sir David Normington: It is better
than tearing themselves apart, of course.
Q95 Geraldine Smith: But I cannot
imagine them doing that in practice. I think that it is naive.
Sir David Normington: I personally
do not know this project particularly, though I have had it described
to me. It is unlikely to be naive and soft-centred because it
is run by the police. The police have taken the lead in trying
to find new ways of stopping gangs beating each other up. The
West Midlands Police is a pretty serious police force, and if
they are leading on this I would expect this to be a really serious
attempt to take the aggro out of a local situation. We will have
more about this when we publish our report.
Mr King: It was set up by the
West Midlands Police following the murders of Letitia Shakespeare
and Charlene Ellis in early 2003. They do feel very strongly that
it has made a very positive contribution in terms of helping young
people resolve their differences in more peaceful ways.
Q96 Geraldine Smith: Surely the solution
must be to stop young people joining those gangs? I do not really
accept the reason that they do so for their own protection.
Mr King: That is the reason that
many young people give when they are asked both why they have
joined gangs and why they carry weapons.
Q97 Geraldine Smith: If I was caught
carrying a weapon I would say, "Oh, it's something for my
own protection". I do not think that I would say, "I'm
doing it because I might stab someone".
Mr King: It is not just the reason
that they give the policeman arresting them; it is also the reason
that they give to people when they are asking them questions anonymously
in surveys, and it does seem to be a genuine—
Q98 Geraldine Smith: Over a cup of
tea?
Mr King: It does seem to be a
genuine concern that many young people have and they do believe,
erroneously as it happens but nevertheless sincerely, that either
by joining a gang or by arming themselves, either with a gun or
a knife, they are somehow safer, when in fact they are not. That
is precisely one of the lessons that this project in Birmingham
and others in other areas where there are gang issues are trying
to convey to people.
Sir David Normington: There has
been a lot of interest in this project, partly because of the
sort of scepticism you express. As I say, I think we can have
confidence that if the West Midlands Police think it is working
then it is probably working.
Q99 Geraldine Smith: I have yet to
be convinced.
Sir David Normington: We will
put it on the database.
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