Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-172)
HOME OFFICE
7 MAY 2008
Q160 Mr Davidson: Is there evidence
that policing resources are reflecting that pattern of crime,
or are they tending to be divided much more equally, either according
to population or geographical area or anything else?
Sir David Normington: We have
been strongly encouraging the mapping of where crime is. Most
police forces now have very good, what they call "e-maps"
of where the hot spots are, and they try to concentrate their
resource more in those areas. I cannot say that happens everywhere
but—
Q161 Mr Davidson: It is up to a point,
though, is it not?
Sir David Normington: Yes, because
some resources, like having a neighbourhood policing team in every
place, is a national coverage; so there is some coverage that
is completely national and there is some that is targeted. I think
that you will find that violent crime the police do try to target
very precisely, on the basis of the data they have.
Q162 Mr Davidson: In terms of allocation
of policing resources, to what extent is it numbers of complaints
as distinct from incidence of crime? I remember being on a placement
with Strathclyde Police, when people in the more prosperous areas
were phoning in if somebody was wearing a loud shirt; whereas
lots of people in the poorer areas were putting up with a level
of misbehaviour that would not have been condoned for a moment
in some of those other areas. Then the police resources were responding
to the complaints rather than to the need. To what extent has
that been overcome?
Sir David Normington: I cannot
say that it has been overcome everywhere, but I believe that this
much more sophisticated mapping of where the crimes are is now
influencing where police resources are going; but, of course,
you are reliant on crimes being reported. That is an issue.
Q163 Mr Davidson: Yes, but the sophisticated
mapping is only as good as the stuff that is going in.
Sir David Normington: Yes, of
course.
Q164 Mr Davidson: If 55% of those
feeding it in are not, for example, taking ambulance service data—55%
are never using ambulance data and 14% have not used it in the
last year. That is 70%.
Sir David Normington: That is
precisely right. That is exactly why it is important that all
the people who have data are putting it on the table and that
there is analysis of all of it. Otherwise, it is susceptible to
what you describe as somebody shouting loudest. This is why we
are putting so much effort into the PCT data. This is a very important
additional bit of evidence as to where those people come from.
Q165 Mr Davidson: I am very sympathetic
to the line I heard you giving somebody earlier about not pressing
everybody to report everything, but how do you strike this balance
between not asking them to report things to you and then not knowing
when they are not doing it? This 55% is the most striking figure,
but in terms of the accident and emergency data it is 42% and
13%, so there is 55% there. The evidence in Strathclyde, and certainly
in the hospital in my area, was that the vast majority of stabbings
and so on were not being reported.
Sir David Normington: This is
an area where we are both working with the partnerships to show
them how to do it and what the benefits are, and also monitoring
whether they are doing it; because, I agree with you, this is
so important. This does make a difference in terms of what you
know about your area. Since this report and partly as a result
of the work done here, we have been, with the Department of Health
in the lead, putting a lot of effort into this issue. The evidence
is here. There is really good evidence of what happens when the
hospital participates. Both in Manchester, and I think in Cardiff
and other places, there is really good evidence of that.
Q166 Mr Davidson: The final point
I want to make relating to this is that we recently had Jobcentre
Plus people in front of us, and they were talking about how they
had introduced the Change Programme, and so on. One of the real
factors that was effective in that was that people had been there
for a while and they were seeing the whole project through. To
what extent is the leadership of these initiatives constantly
changing, and to what extent is it consistent?
Sir David Normington: I would
like to say to you that it is consistent and it think that it
is likely to be more consistent locally, but I am afraid that
I just do not know for sure whether I can reassure you about that.
You are quite right, though, that you need that consistency of
leadership. In fact, the case studies here show that. I think
you will find that in the community safety and in local authorities,
for instance, there is consistency of leadership; generally there
is in the police as well. However, I cannot reassure you completely
about that, because I do not know.
Q167 Mr Davidson: Arising from that
and in terms of police, I do not know whether or not the English
and Welsh police are different from the Scottish police, but we
seem to go through chief superintendents and inspectors on something
like a two-year rota. They spend the first six months learning
where the streets are, they do a wee while and then they are preparing
to leave. Is that the same in England and Wales?
Sir David Normington: Yes, it
is broadly the same in Scotland and England and Wales. Police
do move around quite a bit. That is true.
Q168 Mr Davidson: It makes them more
difficult to hit. I can understand that. By the time they have
done anything, they have moved away before they can get blamed
for it. Does that apply to all the elements of this?
Sir David Normington: It is certainly
true that really good partnerships work when there are good relations
by people who know each other. Some of what we are trying to do
here is to try to ensure that those things continue because there
are systems in place when people move on. I cannot force people
to stay, of course.
Q169 Mr Davidson: No, I understand
that, but you can have norms established that somebody in that
sort of position is expected to be there for four years as distinct
from two years. Do you have anything like that, to indicate that
postings to these sorts of positions are meant to be more than
the usual "Magic Roundabout"?
Sir David Normington: No, but
I think that it is an interesting idea and I will take that away.
Q170 Mr Mitchell: I just want to
ask about guns. We have been through a lot of restrictions. We
have abolished leisure guns; we have closed down the gun clubs;
we have made it very difficult to practise shooting as a sport;
and yet gun crime is rising. It is paradoxical. We are now banning
replicas. Where are the guns coming from and what sorts of guns
are used in gun crime? What do we know about the sources and the
power? Because the Americans are trying to ban assault weapons,
as far as I can see. We have not got to that stage.
Sir David Normington: We do know
quite a lot about the nature of the guns. In fact, I think we
have the detailed breakdown, because I was looking at that this
morning. Shotguns, handguns, rifles, imitation firearms. To give
you an example, in the last year firearms offences by type of
weapon in England and Wales: 609 shotgun, 4,163 handgun, 77 rifle,
2, 663 imitation firearms.
Chairman: You can always put this
in written evidence.
Q171 Mr Mitchell: I would like some
written evidence. 6
Sir David Normington: I can certainly
provide you with that.
Q172 Mr Mitchell: Do we know the
sources?
Sir David Normington: Quite a
lot of it is from overseas. We have not talked about the supply,
but the Serious and Organised Crime Agency is, at our request,
putting a lot more effort into cutting off the supplies, because
quite a lot of it is coming from overseas—plus the Customs
are putting much more focus on gun-smuggling.
Chairman: Sir David and Mr King, thank
you. That concludes our hearing. I am sure that we will be making
recommendations about the more effective sharing of information
between agencies, the better analysis of information and a more
reliable funding. When we return to this, we would very much hope
that, having accepted our recommendations, as I am sure you do,
progress will have been made. You yourself mentioned the progress
you have made on domestic violence. I am sure that more effective
intelligence-gathering and sharing of information is the key to
this. Thank you very much. That concludes our hearing.
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