Examination of Witnesses (Quesitons 140-149)
DEPARTMENT FOR
CULTURE, MEDIA
AND SPORT,
SPORT ENGLAND,
ENGLISH HERITAGE,
ARTS COUNCIL
AND BIG
LOTTERY FUND
MONDAY 2 JUNE
2008
Q140 Mr Bacon: One quick message
to the Treasury, again based on my Germany experience. There is
a payroll tax in Germany. All German citizens who are in employment
pay a payroll tax and when they fill in the various forms you
have to fill in they say which church they are a member of and
a small payroll tax is deducted each month and as a consequence
all the churches in Germany are rolling in money and the buildings
are very well maintained. Has the Treasury given any thought to
this? Seriously, have you ever asked?
Ms Diggle: A very long time ago
I was involved in setting up the national insurance surcharge,
which was indeed a payroll tax, and it was very unpopular indeed
and it was stopped very quickly by a Tory Government, if you remember.
Q141 Mr Bacon: So as a politician
you would not recommend me to pursue this?
Ms Diggle: I just convey those
facts to you, Mr Bacon.
Q142 Mr Mitchell: I hesitate to argue
with our Chairman because after 11 years of being Labour I am
a total sycophant, but I think we should not deal with any of
this as the dead hand of the state but as the more generous hand
of a culturally concerned people. However, my question goes to
Dr Thurley. I would like a note on Dobroyd Castle because the
report is adamant that the grant was used on things like preserving
the stonework, so can you give us a note on what actually happened?[9]
Dr Thurley: I would be delighted
to.
Q143 Mr Mitchell: Do not answer it
now. More importantly, is the report that was in yesterday's Sunday
Telegraph correct that money spent on churches is now going
to be cut back because of the draining of money to the Olympics?
Are our churches going to crumble because we have paid the money
to the Olympic Games?
Dr Thurley: Not from a cut to
the scheme that is looked at here and the scheme that is run by
the Heritage Lottery Fund and English Heritage. No, this is incorrect.
Q144 Chairman: One very last question,
Dr Thurley; will you forgive me? Have you ever given money to
Warwick Castle?
Dr Thurley: Not to my knowledge.
It is a commercially run operation. We do not generally give money
to commercially run enterprises.
Q145 Chairman: Will you take this
opportunity to comment on this commercially run organisation because
you are obviously passionate about your concern for access to
our history? Yesterday I went to Warwick Castle and the entrance
fee is £17 per adult, £10 per child, so with a family
of two adults and three children you can spend the best part of
£80 or £90. Do you think this is acceptable? Warwick
Castle may be commercially run but it should belong to the whole
nation, should it not? Why should this business, Madame Tussaud's,
be profiteering to this extent?
Dr Thurley: Chairman, could I
suggest that instead you join English Heritage and visit Kenilworth
Castle, which is nearby, is a much better castle and you can take
in as many children as you like free with you?
Q146 Chairman: It is a ruin.
Dr Thurley: There are many buildings
inside it.
Chairman: They are all ruinous.
Q147 Mr Bacon: Can I just ask another
question about ruins? You just prompted another thought. What
is your policy on ruins? I am not suggesting that we put a glass
roof on Stonehenge and start using it for meetings of Druids.
I think the Druids meet there anyway. You see a lot of ruined
buildings around the country. I think of Llanthony Abbey just
south of Hay-on-Wye, which I often drive past, which is a ruin,
but also in that area is Tintern Abbey, a much more spectacular
Cistercian abbey, and sometimes when I see these buildings I do
think to myself perhaps it would be better to put a glass roof
on it and have the National Choir School there, make use of it
rather than not using it but just having it as a ruin. Have you
ever been tempted down the road of suggesting that we should be
doing something more actively with some of these buildings for
the purposes for which they were intended rather than just leaving
them as lumps of rock to look at?
Dr Thurley: The answer to your
question is yes. As a rule of thumb we do have a policy which
is that if a ruin is a product of a historically significant event
it is probably better to leave it as a ruin. Tintern Abbey is
a wonderful example of the effects of the Reformation and therefore
building it back again in a sense would be to spoil the wonderful
feeling that you get there of the terrible destruction wrought
by Henry VIII on a flourishing national church. I said that specifically
for the Chairman's benefit, by the way.
Q148 Chairman: You are doing very
well!
Dr Thurley: On the other hand,
if the result of the ruination was not a historically significant
event, the building was neglected or there was a fire or there
was something else, we would positively encourage it to be built
back. I think there is quite a considerable movement, not only
with the ruins that we look after on behalf of the state but also
with privately owned ones, to look at them and bring them back
into viable use because it is very expensive maintaining a building
as a ruin.
Q149 Mr Bacon: Of course. Why, just
because it is ruined as a result of a historically significant
event, should that rule out doing something with it? Let me give
you an example. The Reichstag in Berlin, ruined as the result
of what I think most people would regard as a historically significant
event, is now fully back in use as the German Parliament. Indeed,
if you go along the corridors you see bits of graffiti in Russian
and in German where it was all fought over and raised decks and
walkways where you can see all this and it is protected behind
glass, and it is now back in the use it was intended for as a
Parliament, and indeed, as I am sure you know, the dome has been
replaced by one of glass and light pours in and the whole thing
is much more of a celebration now than it was as a ruin and you
could say the same for Tintern Abbey.
Dr Thurley: I did say that as
a rule of thumb that is the approach we take. I think many people
really enjoy looking at ruins and in fact you have to enter something
in your Who's Who? entry as your recreation and I put "ruins"
down as mine because I think visiting ruins is a wonderful experience.
I think there are very few people who would want to build back
Tintern Abbey or Fountains Abbey.
Mr Bacon: I think I am going to put "restoring
ruins" as mine.
Chairman: That concludes a very interesting
hearing. Gentlemen and lady, thank you very much.
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