Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
60-79)
DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORT, NETWORK
RAIL, OFFICE
OF RAIL
REGULATION AND
ASSOCIATION OF
TRAIN OPERATING
COMPANIES
4 JUNE 2008
Q60 Mr Davidson: That was not the
point I asked. What I was asking was what percentage of the journeys
that are undertaken are eligible for compensation?
Mr Franks: I would need to give
you a calculation to give you that answer.
Q61 Mr Davidson: I am presuming it
is much more than 1%.
Mr Franks: It is, yes.
Q62 Mr Davidson: What percentage
of those passengers that would be due compensation actually make
claims?
Mr Franks: Again that is a very
difficult question to answer because we do not know precisely
who is joining and alighting from trains at particular times.
Q63 Mr Davidson: You must have a
feel for it.
Mr Franks: No. I could do a calculation
and give you an answer if you want me to. [2]
Q64 Mr Davidson: I think that would be
helpful. What I am concerned about or interested in is to what
extent the pockets of the operating companies depend upon people
not claiming the compensation that they are due and about which
they are not made aware. Can you give me a feel for that at all?
Mr Franks: Perhaps I can answer
the question slightly differently. The performance regimes within
our access agreements and the payments we pay back to customers
absolutely incentivise us to get the performance right on the
railway. I will use an East Coast example because I know it well,
but we could find ourselves exposed to a £10 million to £15
million payment to Network Rail and a £5 million payment
to customers in a typical year if we do not get things right.
Q65 Mr Davidson: I do understand
that, but you are also incentivised to make sure that passengers
are aware of their right to claim. Network Rail will know the
system for claiming, but at the moment there is not much effort
made by the operating companies to tell passengers that they are
entitled to claim. Is that correct?
Mr Franks: No, it is not correct.
Again if you were to travel on a train that has been delayed for
30 minutes on the East Coast you will be handed out a delay repay
form on the train. [3]
Q66 Mr Davidson: Of the times that I
have been on either the East Coast or the West Coast and there
have been delays I have never received a form indicating to me
that I can claim.
Mr Franks: I can only comment
in this regard in terms of the services I am operating, but that
is certainly the case.
Q67 Mr Davidson: I am genuinely surprised
by that answer. You are saying to me that the rule that you are
trying to apply is that everyone who might be eligible would actually
be handed an application form to claim back compensation.
Mr Franks: Absolutely.
Q68 Mr Davidson: That would be, to
take the London to Glasgow line, as little as 30 minutes of a
delay.
Mr Franks: I am using my East
Coast as an example here, so if you came on the East Coast from
Glasgow then if you had been delayed 30 minutes or more then you
would be entitled to claim a refund.
Q69 Mr Davidson: How do you know
whether or not that is actually taking place?
Mr Franks: I certainly know how
much money I am handing back to customers.
Q70 Mr Davidson: That does not count
because it could be that you are either paying a large amount
from one train or a small amount from a large number of trains.
It does not necessarily follow that forms are always handed out.
Do you have figures, for example—I think it would be helpful
if we had a note on this—which indicate which trains were
delayed and then being able to compare whether or not you had
any claims for compensation from those particular trains. Not
just yourself as your particular company, but for the industry
as a whole, because presumably if there were trains which had
been delayed by an amount which would then lead to a claim being
payable but in fact no claims were made, it would be reasonable
for us to assume that the forms had not been issued.
Mr Franks: I can answer for National
Express Group companies.
Q71 Mr Davidson: Can I clarify something?
I understand that you are not here from National Express; you
are here from the Association of Train Operating Companies and
therefore you are liable to answer for all companies, not just
for yourself. Sliding out of it by saying, "It wasn't me,
guv, it was somebody else" is not really clear enough.
Mr Franks: I have not tried to
slide out of it. What I would say is that I think if it is an
industry response to this you might need to ask Dr Mitchell from
the Department. I can certainly provide data from the train operating
companies that I operate.
Q72 Mr Davidson: You are not here
representing only your company. You are here, as I understand
it, representing the Association of Train Operating Companies
and therefore presumably speaking on their collective behalf rather
than as an individual. Is this being passed to Dr Mitchell?
Dr Mitchell: We can possibly help
you. We are quite happy to ask the Association of Train Operating
Companies for the data you have requested and we will get back
to you on that.
Q73 Mr Davidson: Would you normally
collect that?
Dr Mitchell: No, we would not
normally collect that data.
Q74 Mr Davidson: So if I had not
been raising this you would not be asking for it. If I had not
raised this with you there is no check on whether or not the train
operating companies actually issue the forms to passengers who
are delayed by an amount for which compensation would be payable.
Dr Mitchell: We do not carry out
a check. I know it is only a number of instances that I can tell
you about, but I am a regular passenger on the East Coast Line
and I can recall four or five occasions when I have been issued
with delay pay forms.
Q75 Mr Davidson: They will recognise
you!
Dr Mitchell: No, not at all.
Q76 Mr Davidson: A little flag will
go up when you are on the train.
Dr Mitchell: No, I do not think
so, but I can say in support of Mr Franks that it does happen
when delays occur. What I cannot say of course is that it always
occurs on every train and that is why we would offer to get the
information for you from the Association of Train Operating Companies.
Q77 Mr Davidson: It would be helpful
if you got it not only collectively but also by companies to identify
whether or not there is any company that is particularly poor.
I take it that yourself or the National Audit Office will actually
check that the figures you are getting back in are correct on
that. Can I just clarify about the publicity for eligibility to
claim? Is there publicity provided only at the point when the
delay occurs or is it provided beforehand? From my own experience
I have never had any publicity provided to me about eligibility
to claim.
Mr Franks: It appears in our Passenger
Charter.
Q78 Mr Davidson: How many passengers
do you think read that?
Mr Franks: That is where it is
recorded.
Q79 Mr Davidson: So really that means
that no information is provided.
Mr Franks: Other than in the way
I have described, we would hand out the forms on trains.
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